Will, it's too bad you didn't get to meet Atlas and Anja at the Helper Seminar in Maryland in November. I'm sure Randy would speak for their drives and stability.

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I've never heard of a requirement for a working dog to be passed off to another handler and work for the new person that didn't do the training. I'm not seeing how that would be a useful trait for what most working dog people consider "work".

I didn't say it was a requirement, I said I disliked that you could not do this with a GSD... the usefullness is that if the Human partner is down with a broken ankle, the Canine partner is not sitting around getting bored, fat and lazy! Amongst other things! As for

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I don't even want people to be able to approach my dog 95% of the time, much less be able to take him by the leash from me.

It sounds more like a liability than an asset! I also did not say that someone could walk up and take the dog away from me, I said I could "hand" a dog off, that would include a "friend" command.
Regardless, I'd sooner have a dog with the confidence and drives to work for anyone on the leash, and I have seen my dogs take adventage of novice handlers, however they are still interested in the work first. My dogs will NOT pine themselves to death over my absence from their lives. A good thing I think! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Regarding their dominance (Carolyn), I have some more dominant than others, however I would say they're not an overly dominant dog with people... they are however more dog aggressive than other breeds. My Giants love a doggy pack environment, where my Dobes prefer to be in a male/female pair, or alone with their human pack.
I would not refuse a novice a Dobe, however as a breeder I would make the best possible effort to ensure that the dog I placed with a novice was not too much dog for the owner, also that the owner had access to knowledgeable trainers and of course a lifetime of access to me (the breeder). I have Dobes in homes of all types, with young children, elderly, singles, and many in working homes, I have not only had NO complaints about my pups, I've had tons of praise for their stable temperament, good nature, strong nerve as well as their health, size and colouring. Our kennel is young, however our bloodlines are not. They are well respected European Working lines that can be traced back to Herr Dobermann himself. We are very fussy about our breeding practices and as fussy about selling them to the best possible homes.
I don't know what the ACTUAL ratio of Dobermanns to GSD's is, and subsequently the ratio of GOOD Dobes to GOOD GSD's, however I do know that you CAN get good and bad in each. The only reason I know GOOD Dobes is because I breed them! Believe me I've seen a TON of crap Dobes come through our training program. Since nobody locally breeds GOOD GSD's, I have seen nothing but crap! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> We have one GSD in our Sch Club, he has wonderful work ethic, however he's from a back yard breeder, and is showing lameness in his back end. I hope it's just some growing pains, but I fear it is HD!
In any breed, as with most things in life, more often than not, you get what you pay for!
If the breeder you're talking to isn't asking as many questions about you, as you are asking about them and their dogs, I would go somewhere else!
Tammy.

When I'm away, (and my wife can vouch for this) I pine for my dogs as much as they pine for me. No wonder they are man's BEST friend! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Tammy,
I don't think that you have a realistic view of dogs working in a serious environment here. Let's take a narcotics detection dog. The dog is trained for a long period, usually along with a primary handler. If the dog is changed to another handler, the new handler and dog will under go a period of training together before they can work as a team. A dog isn't like a tool hanging on a peg in your workshop, the dog has certain traits that will differ a bit from dog to dog, and a different handler just can't grab a dog and go to work if they've never trained with that particular dog - that just doesn't happen.
So if the handler breaks an ankle, as you used as an example, yep...the dog is going to basically be out of work until the handler returns to duty. That's the way it happens in the real world. If the handler is out for good, sure, the dog will go to a new handler....and the two of them will train together before they're deployed.

A liability to you may be an asset to me. You come from a SAR background, I believe, and a social dog is a real asset there. My background is different, and a social dog would not meet my real world needs. A "friend" command would be of no use to me. My dog knows my friends.

And I do not believe from my many years of competition that a strong dog will work well for a stranger. There's no bond, and there's no respect established by just handing the dog to a total stranger - why should the dog work for this person? A dog that would fully accept a stranger on the leash would be a weak dog in my opinion, and I seriously doubt that it would be capable of high level work. Pets get handed off to strangers, that's not done with real work dogs, sorry.

I own an extremely high drive, hardnose Dobermann that dominates in bitework but is as calm as can be in the house.

Steve, you're a lucky guy. One of my club members has one of the strongest working Mals in this country, the dog is just amazing. Yet it's also a wonderful house dog. I hate him, and tell him this at least three times weekly <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Tammy I think its obvious you are bias and thats not bad each to his own. I knew the let people that breed Dobbies and GSD speak would not bring the light to the subject because of biases.

But lets ask people like Ed, Will, David, Lt. Grubbs, Deanne, Richard, Robert or John and others who work, train and sell working dogs for years.

Lets asked why there are no real numbers of Dobermann in this field? Let ask when did this start to happen? Get it out your system.

And Why dobberman guys keep asking this questions. If Dobbermanns are so good why are we not top dog in patrol work, protection work or guard work?

I've read some where there is a lady that prefers Dobermanns for tracking. But its just her and few others silent voices.

Guys up in this poll, Have you ever even had a request for a Dobermann? Is there a supply and Demand problem or is theres just no demand?

This what I want to know. Everybody has their favorite, but what does the Real Facts say?

Between GSD and Dobbie whose really doing the work, by numbers/actual use not 1-100 great dogs out a breed?

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Originally posted by Will Rambeau My background is different, and a social dog would not meet my real world needs. A "friend" command would be of no use to me. My dog knows my friends.

And how long was it that it took Fetz to accept that Bernhard was your friend? LOL

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

At the last Flinks seminar, there was a woman with 2 dobies that were extremely nice dogs. National level material! Needless to say, Bernhard liked these dogs very much. (Will, I would dare to "almost" compare one of them to Atos.) Superb obedience, super hard full crushing grips in protection. Beautiful bark and hold etc. The only thing I didn't get to see was the dog track. Anyway, this woman breeds them and had a nice looking litter of pups at the time. I don't think she has any problems selling her dogs either so I'm sure the demand exists.

With the popularity of the GSD it's just more likely that you will find more people wanting that partcular breed. At any rate, I'm a GSD guy myself for my own reasons. However, I still appreciate seeing other breeds compete at high levels. Guess I'm a sucker for well trained dogs!

By the way Will, what are you putting in Fetz's food that he now has friends? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LOL Yeah. . .every GSD pines like a sick SOB when his/her owner leaves them somewhere.


In 29 years of owning working GSDs we've never had a dog that suffered from nervous issues when left behind for an exteneded period. Isn't really something to worry about with the working lines.

Don,
About eight years ago, I had a client request a Dobe as a PPD, due to allergy reasons. I did a bunch of research ( much harder back then before the internet became widely used ) and found a few sources in Europe that seemed to produce dogs capable of the work involved. I added up all the figures, and my final quote to the client was 3.5 times my usual price for a PPD. They ended up taking a GSD instead, and were very happy with her and taking a daily dose of allergy medication. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Deanna,
Bernhard has been a special case for me - that on field incident where Bernhard slapped me on the back in happiness for doing something right immediately sent Fetz after him, which startled both he and I. Fetz was nine months old at the time, and that was his first true display of defense for what he percieved as an attack on handler ( thank God I had that leash in my hand, that would have been a nasty facial bite, he literally launched himself at Bernhard ). Even with having Bernhard as an extended house guest, Fetz still views him as threat, and treats him accordingly. But he rates Fetz at 70% defense and 30% prey ( Which Bernhard now up to 50% prey...but still 70% defense. Hmmm...German math, I guess ) which he says is an unusual prey/defense mixture for a dog. But he also says that he'd own Fetz in a flash, which is nice to hear...

Will: But he also says that he'd own Fetz in a flash, which is nice to hear...

Actually, Bernhard would say "Thats a dog I would feed in my kennel!" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />