Originally posted by Five-O Joe:
I see the point you are trying to make, however, a III is still a III, FH is still an FH and so on. Unless, of course it was some bullshit book signing trial. Just because the dog has done well in the conformatin arena doesn't make them just white picket fence dogs. Granted, Rotts are not world renowned in sport like GSD's or Mals, but the titles in the lines are there and when not many of the breed go to worlds or nationals, all we have ot rely upon are the titles and scores, which are there.It's not like us Rott folks have the luxury of picking a sire or dam from the podium at at trial, as that rarely happens. We just have to try and find the best lines possible and go from there. I still believe that the Teufelsbrucke and Schweiger Wappen lines are fine producers of working dogs. JMO

I guess it depends on your definition of 'work'. There are many many show line breeders using the GSD as an example that have SchH3 on both the sire and dam. Does that mean they are not show lines?

SchH USA mag is full of them. They are show lines. Now if you want to get into working lines on Rotties let me know. I can point you in that direction also. The thing with Rotties is it is not as big of a split as with the GSD. You have German Show, AKC Show, German Work...

Rotties it is simple. However, still show lines.

Now I never said they weren't nice dogs. Remember like I told you in Indiana I looked very heavily at the lines you mention. I was impressed by the quality. They produce nice dogs. However, I don't want nice anymore... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Well, my definition of "work" would certainly encompass obtaining the highest level of working titles possible, i.e SchH III, IPO III, /FH/FH2, AD (which I knw is not really a title). Particularly in a sport that was not created for them. How much more work do you want? and what would be indicative of that work. PSD's, KNPV's, Ring dogs? Rotts generally just don't do well in those areas, with exceptions of course. What about PPD's? is that work? I jsut don't see how obtaining the highest titles in the area don't constitute work? I mean if your definition of work is the ability to be a bad ass MF, and tear people apart, I can point you to a few Rotts that fit that bill as well, but who the hell wants to have one of those around.

I depends on the quality of the work. I have to go. But when I get back tonight I will give some examples and links to the contrary.

Sport titles are exactly that SPORT. Joe, the comment you made about Rotts not being very good at police service speaks volumes about Rottie working ability.

Many dogs can get sport titles because they are mostly prey exercises. Unless you are at the top levels of competition, and even then I see some dogs that I wouldn't want to own.

That said, Schwaiger Wappen is a good working kennel, for Rotts, and the show titles you will see in these pedigrees are either ARV (American Rottweiler Verein) titles or ADRK (the German breed organization) titles. HUGE! There is a big difference betweent those and the show titles in AKC or UKC stuff.

I have really found that the "working lines" in Rotts have much less of a temperament/working ability/conformation split than other breeds, like the GSD. But, again I'm talking ARV or ADRK, not AKC. One reason is the ZTP.

I don't disagree with anything you said Kaptain. My point was that when you look to the lines and see success in sport, vis a vis upper level titling, that is what a lot of people would consider working lines. I agree that there is a difference between work, as in PSD work, and work as in sport work. And when a breed is not historically a breed that is utilized predominantly as PSD's, you have to look to what the lines are successful in. Although I will venture to say that there have been some fine PSD Rotts out there. Work is a relative term. For husky's or malamutes, work would probably be defined more along the lines of sledding. For bloodhounds, working lines would probably be defined as lines that have had proven success int he tracking arena. Etc.. For us Rott folks, I think that working lines are generally those lines defined by success in sport, as the breeds's true historical working success are difficult to measure, unless you look to success in carting (which I think of as a fru-fru work <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )or guarding the butcher's coin pouch (which we'd be pretty good at <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ).

I gotcha. . . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp:
Sport titles are exactly that SPORT. Joe, the comment you made about Rotts not being very good at police service speaks volumes about Rottie working ability.

It speaks volumes, but not about their ability to work, it is a factor of money:

a Rottweiler takes twice as long to mature as a GSD, and typically twice as long to train. Couple that with a shorter lifespan (which directly affects their working lifespan), and the return on investment is too low, roughly 4 times less than that of a GSD or Malinois....

And that, my friends is why there are little to no Rottweilers serving as PSDs..

but then again, what do I know?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

If you want to know what working lines are good, go spend the several weekends at schutzhund trials and take a look at some of the offspring of dogs you are interested in. Keep in mind - the dam is just as important, more so in my opinion - as far as how the puppies turn out. So make sure her pedigree is as consistant as the stud dogs.

Dig into the pedigree - not just for titles on the dog but for strong, consistant qualities between the dog in the pedigree and its littermates. Ask around with the Rottweiler people for their opinions on what qualities such and such dog had, or if anyone had seen such and such dog work, etc. Get more than one opinion on a dog.

Look up old score books for the big trials and see which dogs had good scores and who the parents were. Which parents consistantly produced dogs that could score well.