In case no has noticed, there is a definite bias in dog people to what they have. And of courdse what every body else has is crap! LOL I think that unless you are a breeder, you are better off looking at individual dogs rather than specifics of points of origin. After all the only dog you care about is the one you have. And after all yours are always the best.

I think that in the overall scheme of things we would all be better off droping the animosity and looking to benifit all the dogs. If the show people would stop trying to stamp out working dogs, and the working people would at least recognize some value in conformation all the dogs involved would be better off.

Here are some little snippets of info from Beth's site, Firestorm Kennels.

"Kyrie and I have done some Agility and had lots of fun." "She is also faster than a lot of other shepherds. She has very little angulation, and though that cuts down on her stamina, it gives her a lot of speed. And she really has a lot of drive, so she will be happier with something active to do." "We did not pursue Agility very far because Kerie seemed to stress about whether she was doing it right."


BTW/IMO The flying trot is horse shit. It looks nice in a show ring, has nothing to do with stamina in it's extreme form.


"when I took him to a fun match, Merlin went and sat under the judge's table on the heel off leash. I have no idea what made him decide to do that, but he did it 2 days in a row!"


"I DO WANT TO MAKE SOMETHING VERY CLEAR!! Having trained and taught personal protection, I will say that you MUST be extremely careful in who you have train your dog. There are many more people who offer training than who know how to train in any type of bite work without making the dog vicious and unreliable."

"and taught personal protection"
I sure hope that I'm misunderstanding that passage.

Chuck you tell me when you find an American GSD that can do protection or sport work. I would like to see it.

The problem is that AKC fanciers of the GSD know exactly DICK about training working dogs. I think I said that above. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> That is why you hear about American dogs that have good drives and can do protection or schutzhund. You are hearing if from the "Fancy".

Mike said it best- A FLUKE. (If true at all.)

Animosity? What are you talking about Rich?

I will change my tune when show conformation is judged in a way that reflects the original german GSD standard. We have been over this one before. :rolleyes:

The only way to change the minds of the Fancy is to shock them with a little truth. It hurts man, but I want healthy working dogs, intrepid in nature and powerful in form. No way is the AKC gonna be in the solution to the problem. That includes the American AKC Show dogs and the present standard.

(yea yea, I know Richard, the standard isn't the problem, it is the application of the standard. But hey, change the standard and FORCE the Fancy to look at it differently. That is the only way you can make a difference. No show line breeder is gonna come out and say, "you know, you guys are right, I've been doing it all wrong. Lets take another look at the GSD standard and re-evaluate how we judge." Ooops, wait hold on a minute. If there was significant money involved then it might happen. If every American in the US, all of a sudden, wanted a working line dog, then they all would be out of busines. You can't often sell chicken shit to someone that wants to make chicken salad.)

VanCamp,

There is NO American line GSD that can perform sport and especially protection to the level of a German line dog or to the level of expectation of those on this board. Definately not one. You get no argument from me here. I did a bit of reading on Beth's site as well. I don't think that she has the level of expectation that is on this board. I see apples and oranges. Again, if she came around and made a statement like "American line dogs are better working dogs than German lines," I'd be screaming blasphemy as well. I haven't read that. Thats all I'm trying to say.

PS....I'm just trying to soothe your "inner child"LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Chuck if you try to touch my inner child I'm gonna kick your ass. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Just kidding. . . .

The real question is not what is to the standard of people on this board, but what is to a standard of real life capability. If you are training protection and telling people that you have a protection dog that will protect? Shouldn't it be the truth. Either from ignorance or malice there are plenty of people that would tell you that American GSDs can do the work. Schutzhund, Protection, even Police Service.

I know that there are no such claims made on Beths website. It is a nice site for pet and conformation dogs. BUT, she is making a claim here that there are real working dogs that are from American show lines. Wrongo Bongo. . .

Ch.Altana's Mystique won Westminster a few years ago, she's sable.

Sorry, but Steekers was NOT a sable dog and she did NOT win BIS at Westminster. You may be thinnking about Jimmy's other more famous dog Hatter (Ch. Covy Tucker Hill's Manhatten).

VanCamp,

I now realize why you and Jason have so much fun!LOL

Your points are well taken. Look, I'm no damn expert on any of this so I think I'll bow out of this one before I get my brains beaten in! I'm gonna take a page out of Richards book. Let the experts figure it out and I'll stick to the training end of things.

Beth,
I notice that your dog Seren's parents were full brother and sister. Were they littermates?? I suggest that you read this article. http://www.dogsgermanshepherd.com/american%20vrs%20german.htm
The person who wrote this was banned for life from the AKC for fraud yet he is still breeding and showing, only he has someone else running things. I am bringing this up because you have one of his dogs in your dogs bloodlines, mainly the dog that he was actually breeding the females to instead of his famous male. I have done my research and can state this with accuracy. You did not do you research re: Altana's Mystique, and you were wrong about that animal (which turned out to be sterile BTW, and NOT a sable).

That article is the best laugh I've had in a while. Thanks Kelly

As to the angulation thing, do "working dog" (GSD) breeders/handlers agree that angulation brings stamina?

Well, I doubt these crippled American hockwalkers can actually work. Their temperament and conformation is a joke. But the German working line dogs are nice in their temperament and conformation. I would get one of them if I ever chose to get another GSD. However, the show line German dogs are getting as bad in conformation as the American types. Give me a good straight backed working dog anyday over a crippled show dog!!!