Re: anyone know anything about these dogs?
[Re: Jeannette Polowski ]
#46489 - 07/01/2002 12:15 AM |
Webboard User
Reg: 09-26-2001
Posts: 706
Loc:
Offline |
|
Originally posted by Jeannette:
Why would a breeder try to breed dogs out of( or near the limits of) standard? If the dog is too big it will automatically lose some agility IMO. because not all "breeders" are concerned with anything more than looks. Some have the "bigger is better" syndrome, thinking that size is the key to the GSDs value as a "watch dog". That size is intimidation, when they have no clue about drives, intensity, or training. It's called breeding on phenotype, they find they like a dog of a certain stature, color, angulation, whatever, and breed for it, producing dogs that are out of standard, in showlines cases most of the time losing drives to do good work. They could care less about the breed as a whole, and the overall dog, and only care about what they like.
Mike Russell
BANNED FROM THE LEERBURG BOARD |
Top
|
Re: anyone know anything about these dogs?
[Re: Jeannette Polowski ]
#46490 - 07/01/2002 12:33 AM |
Webboard User
Reg: 03-12-2002
Posts: 732
Loc: Hudson Valley of NY
Offline |
|
Very sad I think, to lose sight of the whole picture......I admire the GSD and any dog that is intelligent and has the ability to do specific work, whether that be protection,SAR,herding,policing,therapy,etc...
I fing it interesting that the web site advertised that their dogs are bred to work, that's why I don't understand how they can breed for large size.It seems contradictory to me.
And please, realize that I'm not bashing them,I just don't think that that is a good way to approach a breeding program. I agree that it sounds like people can get caught up in breeding for personal preference and sometimes lose sight of the greater good.
No one ever said life was supposed to be easy, life is what you make of it!! |
Top
|
Re: anyone know anything about these dogs?
[Re: Jeannette Polowski ]
#46491 - 07/01/2002 10:04 AM |
Webboard User
Reg: 07-12-2001
Posts: 348
Loc: Nashville, TN and Budapest, Hungary
Offline |
|
FYI,
Xasko is in Ca; Randy Tyson has him as one of her stud dogs (vom haus tyson). He is not as big and substantial as his father, but he is over medium size.
|
Top
|
Re: anyone know anything about these dogs?
[Re: Jeannette Polowski ]
#46492 - 07/01/2002 09:31 PM |
Webboard User
Reg: 10-11-2001
Posts: 50
Loc:
Offline |
|
jeannette, these are not 120 pound shilo sheperds, 90 pounds is not that huge for an adult male. You can't judge by just weight either, you have to look at height,length also. You can take a dog that's at the low end or the middle of the standard and turn him into a 100 pound dog by overfeeding him.Most people that want a nice family pet dont even know the the difference in line's show/working.All they know is they want a big sheperd. I am not a fan of showlines and don't agree with a lot of what some breeders do. There are some working line only dogs at this kennel and she breeds a few litters a year. These pups are not sold to the type of people i described above. Unfortunatly the showline pups outsell the working by a huge margin so this is what she breeds most. You know not every family can handle or want a high drive working line pup or adult,and this is where the showline dogs come in. Although most of these showdogs can and do obtain schutzhund titles they would never compete at top levels of the sport.
|
Top
|
Re: anyone know anything about these dogs?
[Re: Jeannette Polowski ]
#46493 - 07/01/2002 11:50 PM |
Webboard User
Reg: 07-17-2001
Posts: 1496
Loc:
Offline |
|
Size is not always an indicator of show/working line. Recently the size on the working dogs has gone down, and some of the show line dogs are also getting smaller because they can't maintain the larger size and the obnoxious top line slope.
The GSD I had years ago was 135# working weight and not fat at all. He was huge and from imported parents. When we took him out people would ask what he was crossed with. He was titled SchIII, CD, and UDT. I like the big dogs. If I put a dog on someone I want the dog to take the person down, with no questions. It is just what I like in a dog.
A better indication of work/show is to watch the dog move. With show line dogs they will maintain the slope in the top line when they move. Working dogs will have a level or nearly level top line when they move. The slope from a working line dog is going to come from the way the dog stands, rather than an adjustment in the physical structure of the dog.
If you can't be a Good Example,then You'll just have to Serve as a Horrible Warning. Catherine Aird. |
Top
|
Re: anyone know anything about these dogs?
[Re: Jeannette Polowski ]
#46494 - 07/02/2002 12:19 AM |
Webboard User
Reg: 03-12-2002
Posts: 732
Loc: Hudson Valley of NY
Offline |
|
Very interesting Richard. So the top line is a key point in athletic ability?Am I getting the point here?
I have heard over and over that smaller size is the key to agility, but I can see that there may be other factors that play into the overall picture.It is just that Nero is a show line dog and he seems to be much less athletic than my Bella, who is show/working x.( Bella has a true working nature which I like, but Nero is soooo handsome!!)
I never had pure GSD's before and I don't think I have a trained eye to fully understand the angles, gaiting, toplines etc. I just have 2 opposite dogs and one is chomping at the bit and hard, while the other is a little goofy/gawky but a total teddy bear who borders on lazy!!!
It has been wonderful to see the dogs in his pedigree on-line.interesting that Bella and Nero do have some of the same dogs in their pedigrees, but Bella also has working blood. She is a grand-daughter of Dorijan v.Yohaness Berg, whose father was Nero vom Hirschel. I was told that they were working dogs.
I have so much to learn, I love that the board is here and everyone is so informative.This is a truly unique venue for learning,unparralled I am quite sure.
The more info shared the better for all!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
No one ever said life was supposed to be easy, life is what you make of it!! |
Top
|
Re: anyone know anything about these dogs?
[Re: Jeannette Polowski ]
#46495 - 07/02/2002 01:36 AM |
Webboard User
Reg: 07-17-2001
Posts: 1496
Loc:
Offline |
|
Here is a link to an article that describes the structural differences in the working vs show line GSD's. THere are also good diagrams of how these changes affect the way the dog moves and so the effect on motion and agility. GSD Structure
The major difference will be in temperament and drive. Working line dogs are stable, aloof but not afraid, and have a strong desire to work. Some to the point of obsession. You will not see these chacteristics in a show line dog.
If you can't be a Good Example,then You'll just have to Serve as a Horrible Warning. Catherine Aird. |
Top
|
Re: anyone know anything about these dogs?
[Re: Jeannette Polowski ]
#46496 - 07/02/2002 06:42 AM |
Webboard User
Reg: 10-11-2001
Posts: 50
Loc:
Offline |
|
Hey Rchard,
Why do you think they stack dogs the way they do, you know with one leg pulled way back and the other leg forward. To me this really makes the topline appear sloped. I would rather see the dog stand naturally this would give one a more realistic view of the topline, don't you think,what's your thought's on this stacking and why it came about?
|
Top
|
Re: anyone know anything about these dogs?
[Re: Jeannette Polowski ]
#46497 - 07/02/2002 08:01 AM |
Webboard User
Reg: 08-21-2001
Posts: 47
Loc:
Offline |
|
Hi guys,
Jeanette said "I have heard over and over that smaller size is the key to agility, but I can see that there may be other factors that play into the overall picture"
I keep hearing this about size too and I must agree with Richard and say that my personal preference is for a larger dog (but not the 100lb ones). In my experience there ARE other factors that come into play with regard to agility.
I do agility training with my over medium to large 17 month female. Her topline is straight, her gait is far reaching, fluid and level. She has a very althletic build with strong, well defined muscle. You can feel her ribs but not see them.
The trainer is not really used to GSDs in agility and was sceptical about their ability - in Wales the sport is dominated by Border Collies! Well now she has changed her mind after watching my Steffi and her sister Jaz and gasps at their amazing speed, confidence, and self-assuredness.
Some other factors of agility then are to do with I believe:
- muscle power : weight ratio
- correct angulation for smooth movement / transmission
- degree of athleticism / suppleness (look at humans: a super model may have a fantastic body, but could she win a 110m hurdle race against an athlete of equal height / weight?)
- How comfortable the dog feels in it's own body (hard to explain this one, just that some dogs have exquisite balance and depth/distance perception)
The collies are smaller dogs and generally very fast, but they keep falling off the equipment. The trainer keeps saying how important it is to lead the dogs in a straight line onto the narrow dog-walk or they will fall off. Steffi can jump on sideways like a little mountain goat and carry on dead straight. She has never fallen off!
She did however once run to the top of the A-Frame and balance there precariously in a sit so that I couldn't get to her when she was going through a defiant phase!! The Little MOO!!!!
|
Top
|
Re: anyone know anything about these dogs?
[Re: Jeannette Polowski ]
#46498 - 07/02/2002 09:11 AM |
Webboard User
Reg: 07-17-2001
Posts: 1496
Loc:
Offline |
|
bk4Jon,
Check your P.M.
The stacked position in all breeds is the natural position for the dog to stand at attention. The difference with the Show GSD is that there has been changes to the physical structure to increase the slope. The position of the pelvis and the front legs being bred longer than the back combine to increase the sloped position. The slope seen in the GSD is a function of how they stand in preperation to work. That position provides for increased drive forward when they start to move. The GSD is designed for a 15 to 20 degree slope, not the 45 degree slope that is commonly seen in the show ring now. Almost any breed could have the proper slope for a GSD, if you could get them to stand in the same position.
In other breeds the position is based more on being able to also move latarally as well as forward. The position is somewhat exaggerated in most breeds, but it comes from the dogs natural stance. On of the things that is highly prized in a show dog is the ability to "free" stack, the dogs goes naturally in to the Stacked position from motion. This tendancy demonstrates proper conformation becasue that is the natural position for the dog.
If you can't be a Good Example,then You'll just have to Serve as a Horrible Warning. Catherine Aird. |
Top
|
When purchasing any product from Leerburg Enterprises, Inc. it is understood
that any and all products sold by Leerburg Enterprises, Inc. are sold in Dunn
County Wisconsin, USA. Any and all legal action taken against Leerburg Enterprises,
Inc. concerning the purchase or use of these products must take place in Dunn
County, Wisconsin. If customers do not agree with this policy they should not
purchase Leerburg Ent. Inc. products.
Dog Training is never without risk of injury. Do not use any of the products
sold by Leerburg Enterprises, Inc. without consulting a local professional.
The training methods shown in the Leerburg Ent. Inc. DVD’s are meant
to be used with a local instructor or trainer. Leerburg Enterprises, Inc. cannot
be held responsible for accidents or injuries to humans and/or animals.
Copyright 2010 Leerburg® Enterprises, Inc. All rights reserved. All photos and content on leerburg.com are part of a registered copyright owned by Leerburg Enterprise, Inc.
By accessing any information within Leerburg.com, you agree to abide by the
Leerburg.com Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.