Didn't Busecker Schloss go to a better working show line dog to add a bit of sharpness to his his working line? Certainly not the kind of thing a novice like me should mess with. I'd like to think I know enough to recognize what I don't know and this is one of those things. I also believe that if anything is repeated often enough, the desired result will occur but how much crap do you have kicking around as the result of trying to prove a point. Genetics, as I see it, is the gambling on probability with anything remaining possible. With such a firm distinction between the working and conformation sides of the house, to think any one person is going to "fix" it with crossing the two is either uneducated or arrogant. Leave them alone as it is hard enough to find strong working dogs and any crossing, regardless the frequency or result, is ultimately going to distill the working characteristics and in time may disolve them altogether.

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Originally posted by Stig Andersson:
Mike, what do you mean with a "great end user dog"?

End user dog is basically the dog bred to do the function of choice, but not necessarily the dog you would breed and carry on with to keep producing dogs of that type.

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I have a friend who is a bit intressted in a pup after akil and a workingline bitch...

Is this the Akil/Waktah litter you're talking about? If so, my friend is the one that had a pup reserved from, and she took a pass as she didn't think it would suit her purpose in the long run (producing PSDs reliably) and figured it would be a better "end user" litter. That is the litter we (and others) discussed privately on end, before she made her decision.

Originally posted by Gordon Beyer:
Didn't Busecker Schloss go to a better working show line dog to add a bit of sharpness to his his working line? are you talking pre or post Alfred going a bit off the deep end? In other words, before or after he bred Pleuni, and subsequently Half/Hermes?

Mike can you explain this. I don't understand the history.

In other words, before or after he bred Pleuni, and subsequently Half/Hermes?

many said that Alfred Hahn (vom Busecker Schloß kennel) should never have done the breeding that produced Pleuni. That she was poor in temperment, and also the controversy surrounding her Kör, where she was rated "sufficient" then he immediately took her to a vet friend and had her pronounced sick so she could redo her Kör (which at the next she got "pronounced").
Half was a bit controversial, and I'm not going to go into it on a BB, as much would be misunderstood and some of the circumstances around him were told to me in confidence. I've been advised by trusted sources to avoid Pleuni and her offspring (especially if she's holding down the tail female line) as they would be what one would term a weak dog. And because of this breeding and subsequent "scandal" surrounding Pleuni, some old time breeders and "fanciers" thought that old Alfred must've been off his rocker to breed her. But this is all history and anecdotal, and has been discussed before, just not here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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Originally posted by Eric Lund:
Kevin it would be considered an outcross because there are no similar dogs in the first 5 generations. But I would think if an outcross was done you should back mass on certain dogs in the 5th to 8th generation. My female goes back 12x to VA Mutz von der Pelztierfarm, 8x to Nico haus Beck,23x Vello zu den Sieben-Faulen-Bodo and Berndt's father, Bodo 3X, and Klodo 6x (the dog Grief zum lenental was line bred on). So to me it makes sense to breed to a working male that has these dogs multiple times in the pedigree.

Now sit down and calculate the inbreeding quotient. Is there a threshold that would be consistent with "linebreeding" vs. "outcross", if you were asking a geneticist I'm certain that they would call this inbreeding. We just have acceptable levels (and absolutly necessary levels!) we reinvent as linebreeding or even when we call 'em outcrosses it seems.

Kevin,

I'm just going by the typical terms used for talking about these issues. Most breed book use the term inbreeding for Parent-progeny, sibling, and half sibling breedings sometimes also grandsire-dam/ 2,3 breedings. 3,3 to 5,5 breedings they ussually call linebreeding. After that it's ussually called an outcross. If that wasn't the case nothing would be an outcross. I'm sure your dog goes back just as many times to Vello. Wait a minute I'll check.

Kevin, ops, sorry I guess not. What kinda dog is that Chec? Russian? Do you know what dogs CJ goes back to from Germany?

Czech is the correct spelling, get it right!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

If I'm not mistaken, Hundorfu is a Hungarian kennel name, Kevin??

Hungarian lines are Czech lines with little differences.