My only experience with closely lined Fero Dogs was a puppy I had out of Rick Burgos's FERO son Lago, he was bred to a Fero daughter. I can't remember her pedigree? Mink and Maletesta in there??? The pup was as solid a pup I ever had. He required very little socialization to anything, would readily go into any enviornment, happily play with any animal or person, no handler aggression. One hell of a natural tracker from day one. We donated him young to an officer in need, he graduated the youngest ever out of the CT State Police. He matured on the job and had several very hard fought apprehensions.

One dislike, bithcy little head, it did get bigger, but not where you would like it to be.

Bryan Colletti
President of K-9 CRIME STOPPERS INC

Originally posted by Michael Talyor Rivers:
..
But the present requirements for the sport ask for a flashy dog, thus dogs with thinner nerves are easier to train, and the end result is people breed for what is needed or required. I disagree-- I have a flashy obedience dog with thinner nerves and he is BITCH to train. He is NOT easy. He's linebred on Fero too. Too bad too cause he has a killer grip and super looks.

My point is that if I came to you and you sold me a puppy and I was a police officer and it turned out to be a great service dog then you can say you breed for service work BUT if I bought the same puppy for sport and it turned out the dog had thin nerves then it's blamed on the sport. The genetics are still the same in that dog- the difference is the purpose I bought the dog for. Maybe I'm not explaining myself correctly. Many thinned nerved Fero progeny are service dogs as well as sport dogs- it's the DNA that makes up what the dog truly is......Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying. Police Service work can bring out the traits (good or bad) but it's not the work that makes the dogs weak or strong- it's genetics.....thin nerves are thin nerves regardless of the intended use.

.Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying. Police Service work can bring out the traits (good or bad) but it's not the work that makes the dogs weak or strong- it's genetics.....thin nerves are thin nerves regardless of the intended use.

Karmen,
But, it is seldom that people actually breed for police service work. They look to the sport and its original intention which was to produce working dogs, for such genetics. Unfortunatly, we have discovered over time that the adulteration of the schutzdienst into sport instead of as a selection process to assist breeders in producing working dogs has allowed a fair number of animals who produced problems to become popular because their progeny were sporty, not necessarily powerful.
I have heard a lot about fero progeny. I have observed quite a few on the sport field and purchased a bunch for police work. I find when i get them into buildings on slick floors and dark environmnets (sound like where I might do police work?) they crumble. It will NOT be true of them all, that ius certain but after owning several Fero dogs and training a bunch for police work, this is a concern. I find it interesting that many people want to combat the figures with justifications, and if the dog is bred over that it is OK. But, i have found that it is a character trait in the Fero progeny over numerous bitch lines. I have also seen Troll progeny that were awesome. I like many of the Dollenweise dogs, even those that have Fero in them. But, it doesn't change the numbers. I expect that in another few generations Fero linebreeding will loose its appeal. I just hope, for the sake of the police service dog, that the environmental problems are viewed as something to prohibit further breeding by those individuals that show the problem. I challenge the breeders to test their stock for environmental problems, something the SPORT does a poor job of doing. That is why I often bring up my observations on Fero progeny and this problem. I also see it in some other lines as well (Lewis malatesta's brother Lando malatesta SchhI, DHI was a patrol dog in my Unit and I fought for YEARS over this problem with him and he is from Mink, a dog I very much like to see in the police dogs....even if a lot of his progeny are stupid and hectic, they tend to be driven as hell in the hunting and prey areas).

Originally posted by Karmen Byrd:
Originally posted by Michael Talyor Rivers:
..
But the present requirements for the sport ask for a flashy dog, thus dogs with thinner nerves are easier to train, and the end result is people breed for what is needed or required. I disagree-- I have a flashy obedience dog with thinner nerves and he is BITCH to train. He is NOT easy. He's linebred on Fero too. Too bad too cause he has a killer grip and super looks.

My point is that if I came to you and you sold me a puppy and I was a police officer and it turned out to be a great service dog then you can say you breed for service work BUT if I bought the same puppy for sport and it turned out the dog had thin nerves then it's blamed on the sport. The genetics are still the same in that dog- the difference is the purpose I bought the dog for. Maybe I'm not explaining myself correctly. Many thinned nerved Fero progeny are service dogs as well as sport dogs- it's the DNA that makes up what the dog truly is......Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying. Police Service work can bring out the traits (good or bad) but it's not the work that makes the dogs weak or strong- it's genetics.....thin nerves are thin nerves regardless of the intended use. I am not sure if I follow you all the way. My point is that alot of the dogs that are in the sport, do not need to have rock solid nerves, and they can get thier paws onto the podium. In turn these dogs are bred. They pass on thier nerves. Alot of these dogs perform flashy routines due to thier nerves. People want to breed what will win. If there was a test in Schutzhund that tested say a dog in a building then half of the dogs on in the BSP most likley would not be there, thus they would never had seen the breedings that they have. This is my point. What we bred for yesterday is not what we need or want for today.(For most people int he sport) The sport has changed, and so have our dogs. No longer do we need a dog with strong fighting drive to get into the BSP as we did in the early 80's . So why breed for it , if it will loose you points? Most of our working line dogs come from Schutzhund people.

So yes genitics play a big role, but what we ask for is what we get.

But, it is seldom that people actually breed for police service work. They look to the sport and its original intention which was to produce working dogs, for such genetics. Unfortunatly, we have discovered over time that the adulteration of the schutzdienst into sport instead of as a selection process to assist breeders in producing working dogs has allowed a fair number of animals who produced problems to become popular because their progeny were sporty, not necessarily powerful.

Karmen,
Maybe I am a little lost on what you tried to say on your last post but Kevin, once again, hit the nail dead on. Schutzhund these days is not a breeding tool anymore, it is a show and Fero is just an example of this. What I want to know is:
Are there good systems out there that are used to selection test police dogs? I know the Flinks test is used(That is what I used), but is this the type of system that is used to select police dogs? Are they really that accurate in determining whether a 6-8 week old pup will be suitable for police work? Or does one just have to wait until the dog has matured enough and have gone through specific training for someone to put them in that category. Because, I beleive that in the future, 95% of the time, I am not going to rely on Schutzhund to show me what a working dog should be like.

I think I must have misunderstood the original post by Howie. I'm not disagreeing that some people breed for certain aspects such as sport and that has in return narrowed the gene pool for PSD. My point was just because I do Schutzhund with my dog doesn't make him have thin nerves. He has thin nerves because he was born that way. His post made is sound like that doing the sport CAUSED a dog to have thin nerves.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Karmen Byrd:
I think I must have misunderstood the original post by Howie. I'm not disagreeing that some people breed for certain aspects such as sport and that has in return narrowed the gene pool for PSD. My point was just because I do Schutzhund with my dog doesn't make him have thin nerves. He has thin nerves because he was born that way. His post made is sound like that doing the sport CAUSED a dog to have thin nerves.

Now we are on the same page, I get what your saying. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

No, Karmen that's not what I was trying to say at all. I just meant that alot of dogs in schutzhund have weak nerves and most of the people involved in the sport do not recognize this and therefore, in their eyes, a dog with weak nerves looks good to them because it is "flashy" and then they breed to those standards. Sorry for the mass confusion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />