Quote:

So, will you guys be putting *Finest American GSDs Available* on your web sites????

Um, NO!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> As I said earlier(maybe another thread) I breed for myself first. However, I can not keep all the pups so I have to sell them. Putting American Bred would not be to conducive to accomplishing that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> :rolleyes:

 Quote:

Why won't you import anymore dogs from Czech? Just curious. Are you saying you've got your foundation stock in place now and don't need to import?

I have a pretty good collection of what I am looking for. I am always looking for something else. However, I am very specific. I would like to add 2-3 bitches of the utmost quality. Probably with the lines of Ciro z PS, Titus z PS. Something along those lines. I am very happy with my stud lineup.

 Quote:

American Working Lines? What he h**l is that??? Is that not oxymoronic?

No such animal exists.

Yes Joy, no such animal exsist. YET it is COMING.

Oh!! I'm sorry, I'm a moron, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> where did the Czech dogs come from?? It doesn't matter, the dogs will have have to all go back to being just German Sheperds. Wouldn't that P$ss of all the IMPORTERS that sell the garbage the Elite Europeans don't want. (Don't misunderstand me , theyalso sell fantastic animals, but we breed the same type here in the USA) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

There is nothing wrong with saying my BLOODLINE is of "What ever Bloodline" but we have bred them for generations here in the USA. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

It's great to be proud of any heritage, human or animal but we have to move on. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Butch, Butch, Butch. We can say we have American working lines when we as a group can breed 10+ generations of dogs that were all bred in America. No outside European line influence.

Notice the "as a group" part.

Not just one breeder, even though I certainly don't know anyone who has done it.

If you keep having to go back to Europe to get studs and bitches even one to two generations back, we don't have a working BLOODLINE!!!!!!!!!!! We have people who are breeding working dogs in America from European working bloodlines.

Think of what a bloodline means on that level. West German?

This entire discussion boils down to semantics - and how we want to identify ourselves and our dogs. Butch's point, I think, is that after how many generations can the dogs be considered "American?" The majority of us, I suspect, would identify ourselves as Americans. I, for one, am an American. That my ancestors immigrated from Germany some 150+ years ago is essentially irrelevant to who I am today.

The issue for most of us, particularly those who breed (not me - at least not dogs <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ) is how we want to identify our dogs. We refer to slope backed, pin headed, miserable examples of GSD's as ASSes. When we look to obtain a working dog, we are turned off by the phrase "American bred GSD." Therefore, breeders of working GSDs don't want the association and refer to their dogs as European, German (East or West even though that distinction geopolitically ended over a decade ago) Czech, Belgian, etc. Bottom line is that anyone looking to get a good working (redundant, I know) GSD should look to more than the "country of origin." We all know crap dogs come from Europe as do great dogs. Same holds true for dogs bred in America. Dogs born in this country are "American." They, like I, may be of German descent, but American nonetheless. I for one have no intention of renouncing my American citizenship or identity based upon my heritage.

That being said, maybe the best way to describe our dogs whelped in the US of A is as working GSDs. Until we can eliminate the ASSes and then they'll just be GSDs! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

We have not bred them for generations here in the US!!

This is a stupid. AND THEY ARE NOT COMING!

When we have a Schutzhund club on every corner, a core of trainers that can take home bred American dogs and compete at an international level, when we have a stable and producing independant line, when we have our own independant registry for the working lines with our own judges and administration. . .the list goes on and on.

We are WAY behind the power curve in the area of working dogs. Go to Europe you will feel like a real jerk.

I have no hope that anything like that will be accomplished here. Not even if Schutzhund became a household name. . .especially not then. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Keep dreamin though, Butch, keep dreamin.

As an example of this being an argument over semantics - look at VC's post. Why 10+ generations? Why not 6 or 8 or 15. It's completely subjective. Let's focus on breeding better dogs and not worry so much what we call them.

Its not subjective STAN! Its genetics, the number is really irrelevent. When we as a whole in this country can reproduce A BLOODLINE of working dogs then we can call them American. That isn't happening in anything less than 10 generations, for it to be a self sustaining BLOODLINE to draw great working dogs from.

I think Robert's post nailed it. There is absolutely *no* american bloodline that can consitently produce good working dogs. Period. (Oh, I hope nobody here posts about somebody's brother in law's cousin's neighbor's friend in Westwoebegone, Iowa who worked a long haired white ambred in K9 once. Even if it's true, it is a fluke of genetics).

Humans and dogs are completely different subjects. Lets stop using that stupid comparison.

People have cultural influence and dogs don't, with dogs it is about genetics.

Again, when we can reproduce a conintuous line of dogs bred here, with no outside influence, that are GREAT working dogs, then we can say we have a bloodline.

 Quote:

(Oh, I hope nobody here posts about somebody's brother in law's cousin's neighbor's friend in Westwoebegone, Iowa who worked a long haired white ambred in K9 once.

HEY!!!Being in Iowa, I resemble that remark!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Humans and dogs are completely different subjects. Lets stop using that stupid comparison.

People have cultural influence and dogs don't, with dogs it is about genetics.

You mean I can overcome my redneck hillbilly backwoods breeding??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ed has an article about foster dogs. He talks in the first couple paragraphs of developing a bloodline. The first thing in there says breeding 10 litters a year. Truthfully, I am trying to get there. Last year we had 6. WOW!!! A lot of work. Especially when we had them 2 at a time. Yikes!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Possibly this year. Just bred 2 last week. Getting ready to breed Danu to CJ if all the stars are in alignment. So we have a pretty good start for this year. One problem we have to work out yet. I only have 6 bitches. Hmmm. "Honey, I need more dogs!!!" That'll be fun.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />