Originally posted by Sch3FH2:
But let's not give the false impression that a dog with a full, calm grip is automatically a useless prey monster. It AIN'T so. That god-given grip is genetic for many of them and independent of the quality of the nerves. And many, many, did I say many, of the dogs who don't bite full or calm are doing so BECAUSE they are insecure. The appearance of fight (like oldearthdog said the dog who makes the hair stand up on his neck) is very, very often mistaken for confidence and aggression, when in reality it is nervousness, unsureness, and excessive defense in the face of only medium threat. In those cases, it deserves to be penalized. I definitely agree with that also. There are a lot of variables to the equation.

Could this dogs reaction be from his being trained originally for PSD? More defensive training? His bark and hold is very deep, threatening,and irregular with ears forward, tail up. I'm just learning Sch, but my knowledge of dogs says this guy is serious.

Sure, very likely. If his previous training was highly defensive, then he would be very wary and looking for when the &#%* is going to hit the fan.

Sounds good to me.
I don't know if it's just the DVG club I'm visiting, the people and TD, but even the dogs that look like what I would call club dogs(just having a good time) get just as much time as the really competitive dogs. I like it!
Keep this topic going. I'm learning.

There is plenty that goes into judging a dogs biting ability, nerves etc. I think that if I have a dog that is displaying confidence, and brings a good fight to the decoy, but displays a 3/4 grip, it is foolish to bang points for grips. It does not make any sense. This happenend to Thomas Volrath's Czeck dog a few years in Riverside. The dog bit hard, looked sure but did not bite full and was banged some points for it. But he was one of the hardest dogs in the trial, even the judge commented what a high quality dog he was. Alot can be said for a dog during the hold and bark exerises, about what the dog's temperment is about. If you have a dog that is hanging on by its front teeth and you see sighns of spookyness, then sure this dog should be not be awarded full points for grips. That is a given. There must be a line drawn somewhere. I think that the line has been drawn to far in favor of the calmness and fullness of bites.

DVG gives the alternative to competing with these dogs and getting a fair shot at being the number one dog there. If you have a dog like this in USA or the SV your chances are slimmed down a bit.

SchH and Mike are banging all the good points.

Sure the grip can be one possible indication of nerve, but the other signs the dog gives are important also. So no, you don't give full points to the dog with goofy nervy grip that is rolling his eyes into his brain and shaking like a ugly poodle that just crapped on the floor, but you SHOULD give full points for the bad ass killer dog even though he doesn't take the sleeve into his stomach.

My only point, and illustraited very nicely by both Mike and SchH. You guys are beating me to the punches.

I need to quit this work crap and spend more time on the board. lol

Only thing I have to add is that I have had numerous conversations with DVG judges and they agree that the grip has been given to much emphasis in the past. Are they doing a perfect job elsewhere, far from it, but it is easier to teach and tighten up other issues in scoring and "quality control" than it is to change the minds of many many judges who are grip fanatic, like you may find in USA. Am I making sense here?

Don't forget tho, VC, that the USA judges, unlike the DVG judges, always have it in the back of their mind that they should stay in line with what is valued over in Europe. The scoring from the three qualification trials to the WUSV determines who will make the team, and they want to send teams that will score well against that standard, which includes the full, calm grip requirement. The "bad ass killer dog" would not only compete poorly against that standard, but also would not be well received in the current climate in Europe, particularly Germany, where there has been public pressure against biting dogs (not to mention that the bad ass killer dog usually doesn't have the best control, never mind the grip issue). I can't help wondering if we couldn't keep that awesome grip AND get stronger nerves/temperaments cuz you certainly do see some dogs that have BOTH.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Sch3FH2:
Don't forget tho, VC, that the USA judges, unlike the DVG judges, always have it in the back of their mind that they should stay in line with what is valued over in Europe. The scoring from the three qualification trials to the WUSV determines who will make the team, and they want to send teams that will score well against that standard, which includes the full, calm grip requirement. The "bad ass killer dog" would not only compete poorly against that standard, but also would not be well received in the current climate in Europe, particularly Germany, where there has been public pressure against biting dogs (not to mention that the bad ass killer dog usually doesn't have the best control, never mind the grip issue). I can't help wondering if we couldn't keep that awesome grip AND get stronger nerves/temperaments cuz you certainly do see some dogs that have BOTH.

I agree that it is our goal here in the States to score well in the World Cup. This could very well be the reason why the USA judges are big on the grip issue. This has become a problem for all of the GSD clubs that follow European suit. But I still don not really see why the grip is so heavly pointed when it is not really full as your correctly pointed out that there are full mouth biters that are just as for real as the 3/4 grippers. And as I said before just because the dog is biting 3/4 does not mean he is going to rip a person's face off; he very well can be channelling that aggression towards the sleeve.

As far as controll I am not sure I agree with you. I have seen many prey monsters that are not under controll.

While I am all for full grips, I think that it has been pushed by far to far! When a dog rocks and fights, and bites full it is given full points under SV rules, but if it does the same and bites 3/4 it gets banged some points? This is where I feel DVG has a better approach to grip judging, then the SV style of judging.

We all can talk about DVG judges fudging, but this is found everywhere.

I am not sure that there is a difference between the way that the DVG judges over here then in Germany. I believe that we over here follow suit of the German DVG; so it is the SV style judging that needs revision. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, I'm not really defending their position, just mentioning a possible source of the origin of that requirement.

Can I get off topic a second? Whad'ya think about the idea of automatically putting the winner of the Sch3 HOT trial on the world team, as long as he scores a certain minimum, like 280 or 270?

Problem, in my opinion, 'the USA judges keeping the SV standards in the back of their minds'.

Why follow a faulty plan from a group that has clearly lost it's goals of producing the best possible working dogs. I think that is a crappy thing to do.

Sure, I wanna see a good dog that also has good grip, but I don't give a damn about a crap dog that has a full mouth grip that can score better than a good dog with a lesser grip. Come on. . .

And control is control, no matter what dog you have. There are plenty of bad asses that out fast and sure, and plenty of crappy dogs that don't out.