Richard straightened me out on the clicker right away. I'm a big fan of whatever works for whoevers using it. (diplomacy) :rolleyes: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Its not the "clicker" that makes training successful but the operant conditioning techniques that these trainers use.

Often, very tough dogs that refuse to be dominated can learn to enjoy training if purely positive reinforcement is used for the first few months.

An added benefit--later on, less force (softer correction) will often achieve compliance since they don't grow immune to being yanked on (leather-neck syndrome).

Dave,

Is that double post for my benefit? I thought Ikor covered that quite nicely with just one. The question then becomes "purely positive" with your voice or your click. Click it up man, clickity click, more power to you.

The hostility to this concept is amazing!

I'm getting private messages asking if there is any data supporting clicker training etc.

As a professional researcher, I have not seen ANY reliable data on ANY training techniques...No grant money in this area.

The "clicker" is IRRELEVANT. Anybody that can't understand this fact should do some reading.

I've never used a clicker.

What I have used is the operant conditioning techniques espoused by Karen Pryor and others... BTW. she trained with a whistle.

Van Camp;
Does the clicker actually speed-up the learning process for dogs in training? The answer to that is...well, maybe...sometimes. Very first rule of dog training...trainer must be smarter than dog!

The clicker is always the same, that is, no voice inflection, emotion, etc., so in that respect it is a more consistent reinforcer of desired behavior. It is faster and, thus, more precise, when "marking" desired behavior. Clicker fans will tell you to hold an object at arms length (book, ball, etc.) and try to say "good boy" (don't cheat...use your normal voice cadence) before it hits the floor. Can't do it. Try the clicker and you find you can click several times. With the clicker, you can actually teach a "half-sit" if you wish. (Of course, some of our dogs were born knowing how to do this!)

Dave is "right on the money" when he says this is really about Operant Conditioning and not about the clicker. This type of training has been too successful in too many situations to doubt its' effectiveness in general terms...for certain things. Herme Springer does not make prong collars for Killer Whales, and how else would you train, say, monkeys or lemurs? Certainly, for pet dog training it is at least as good as yanking your dog around in a circle at PetSmart. It can also be done indoors at home...in the environment in which the dog lives. Very good for grandma and "Fluffy".

On the other hand, when we get away from standard pet dog type training and begin to demand serious, no B.S. control such as with sport dogs...even more so with PSD's...the clicker/operant conditioning training may fall short of what we need. Many of the people who are most insistent about the successes of such training have no idea that dogs like we regularly work even exist...and would never try to work them if they did.

Yeah, I have used the clicker and will continue to use it when and where I think it has a place. I also have prongs, leashes, long lines and e-collars and will continue to use them in their proper place. Training is not an "either/or" situation. Remember, the mind is like a parachute...it works best when it is open.

Hi dave, Not trying to be Hostile at all.

I did a search of Karen Pryor on GOOGLE and volumes of information came back. it would appear she may have altered from a whistle and is now the the one who wrote the book on Clicker Training.

This clicker stuff deserves more study from my point of view but I am not convinced that it is a new and improved way to train dogs.

Just a new variation of the same old thing called work.

Your mention of Karen training with a whistle does get her points in my book so I will look a bit harder at what she has to say on clickers.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Jerry

Research shows that you have something like a 2 or 3 second window to praise to keep the association between praise and action. To get a novice to praise at all while he is fumbling with the leash, trying to remember what leg to stop with and wondering why this stupid dog is forging or lagging is hard enough. With the clicker a TD can walk with you and click at the precise moment the dog is in a proper heel and the dog thinks this is coming from the handler. That’s all. Otherwise “God boy” does the trick just fine.

I spent a short time reviewing Karen's web sit about her book and clickers and it from the start appears to be centered around the sale of clickers and her books. Fair enough, she wrote them and is trying to market them.

The one part that I am not in complete agreement with is her assertation in regard to the elimination of Punishment or Negitive Re-inforcement and this being scientific fact.

There are still..................

some very simple scientific laws that dictate everything we do in life and that includes Dog Training.

You have Night and Day, Good and Bad, Up and Down, Over and Under. There is also here and there and you can add Plus and Minus.

My point is that the concept of a sound association of a click is no different than that of the sound and pitch of the voice. My own whistle training to imprint pups is just that a sound imprint.

Whenever I read about something that is touted to be scientific and then in the same breath seems to contradict the natural laws of science I then become suspect.

She negates the natural law which in itself could be flawed as who am I to rewrite these laws when she says that the positive is without the negative.

Still going to keep reading up on this subject.

Jerry

Jerry... Karen's website has little information.

I recommend her recently updated book... "Don't Shoot the Dog"... it can be found at most major bookstores... in the Psychology section not with other dog material.

She has written about 5 or 6 other books on related subjects as well.

The removal of punishment is a reward. This has been scientifically tested... I can give you the citation if you like.

In fact, this is a KEY to understanding training using operant conditioning.

Think of it this way... under traditional training, the dog avoids punishment by sitting when told.

The reward stems from avoiding correction through compliance.

Potential Problem in Trial:
Dog goes into trial-- handler commands to heel-- dog is slow/sloppy/etc... but feels NO CORRECTION like in training-- dog says Yippie! No correction --- I'll try sniffing over here--- No correction... Yee haaa... I'm freeeeeee!