I believe that although its true that training the recall can be acomplished through mostly positive techniques, at some point,under distractions, for 100% absolute reliability, corrections will likely be necessary. The whole positive only movement has been a very hot topic here lately. I agree that ideas and methods have evolved over time, however count me in as one of the people who still think that at some point corrections are needed. JMHO. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I believe this as well. for a 100% will do, okedokie right now recall, correction will have to be used to make the dog understand, he MUST come under any situation. Motivational training for "Learning" and Compulsion for "Proofing"

I guess what I am "hearing" is kinda what I am trying to get at, to get the 100% recall most dogs will need correction during proofing,

however if I allow my 5 month GSD to not recall even once (even when using her favorite treat) I am teaching her she doesnt have to come every time, but does giving her a correction at a young age run the risk of "ruining" her nerves, would it be better to not put her in a situation where she might not succeed (ie. dont use distractions) until she is older?

Correct DJ,

5 Months is too young for collar training corrections, I did use verbal ones. You can use distractions but just ignore a failure and reward correctness, when she does it wrong she does not get her reward, hence works harder and "Learns" what is expected. Take it back a step if she fails under distraction and use Ed's theroy, Time Before Distance Before Distraction, let this echo in your mind.

I would not say this is teaching she doesnt have to come every time, rather she is learning what is expected. When you feel she has truly learned, then you can proof with corrections. Again I started proofing corrections at 6 months, as I feel my dog is ready and can handle it mentally. But only with commands he truly knows, and is starting to slip on.

IMO there is plenty of time for you all to go to the prong, why the hurry? Motivational does not mean no corrections or cumpulsion. Motivational means timing and balance between cumpulsion and reward and complulsion when needed. Check out the Flinks tape, although your dogs are young, the philosophy is where it's at. Slow down, enjoy the puppy for being a puppy, there will be plenty of time to "go hard".

As a result of personal and vicarious experience, I am compelled to ask a few questions? Are your expectations in line (reasonable) for your particular and respective animals? Why the rush, is there a race for who can be the first to title a sch / knpv/ ring dog at he youngest age?

Prongs are EXCELLENT tools, when applied correctly. Please do not construe this as a backsided inplication. At various stages of development, not always chronological either, dogs can be more forgiveng of an ill timed or improperly administered correcttion. May I suggest, humbly, that you all think of your long term goals instead of worrying about the 5 month old puppy that won't do a 100 mph recall? Vince, VanCamp, Richard, Ed, Kevin, Ikor........jump in here, if I'm off base, y'all don't hesitate to tell me.

Good Luck

Great Post Trooper,

I agree with you 100% I especially like this part,

Motivational does not mean no corrections or cumpulsion. Motivational means timing and balance between cumpulsion and reward and complulsion when needed. I beileve that is right on the money! It took me a while to figure this out.

As embarassing as it is to say, it took me WAY TOO long to figure it out. Same old story......If I knew then..... I really hope it works for you. How many dogs could have been spared uneeded and probably excessive correction had I had someone else tell me the same? I will never do it any other way.

Good posts Trooper.

Hello! I'm new to the board and definately not an expert, but I thought I'd put in my two cents worth anyways.

I have a very soft dog (I know that now). He is extremely intelligent and was always good at recalls, except for when he was a "teenager". I've always free run him in parks no problem and he always comes back, first time. He is whistle trained to return because I just can't yell that far. When he was a teenager I did use a prong because he pulled on the lead and was distracted by other dogs. 2 good pops and he was cured for life. Now when I put even a Martingale slip chain coller on him, he thinks it's the prong, I hardly ever have to correct. I did not use it when he was younger however, I just used food and motivation. Quick direction changes work very well when your dog is distracted by something coming towards you.

I would be hesitant (unless your dog has a harder temperment) to correct him using a prong coller on a formal recall. I ruined my dog for formal obedience because I took someone's advice and corrected him on recall's for not coming fast enough. He is extremely obedient already, but if I were to attempt to enter him in a for real trial he would shut down on formal recalls because he remembers what happened. 2X is enough for him, then he goofs up on purpose. I will always regret the few harsh corrections I gave him, but I didn't know any better. There is plenty of time for you to get the results you want. Don't force it too early.

Also, I would not walk your dog on a flexi on city streets. He should learn how to heel properly first. I believe walks are for walking. You walk, he walks. No stopping, no sniffing, etc. If you want him to have fun, teach him how to enjoy a free run in a secluded park or woods and with or without a long line. I believe flexi's are overly and improperly used.

One other thing. Most dogs are ruled by their stomachs, especially a puppy. A hungry dog will do anything for you and a treat. And sometimes training just takes time. You have to allow for that. Dogs have long memories, don't rush anything. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Let the race begin............and where off. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />