Maybe VC will review Konrad Most book, Training Dogs A Manual, for us........

This sort of discussion is interesting to me, perhaps it should move over to another area of this forum...
Anyway, I am re-reading the Culture Clash book...am already halfway through it since starting this thread...and she does make mention that the kinds of precision required in stylized competitions such as schutzhund often include +P/-R...and that this sort of method MAY be necessary if that is what you want out of the dog...and then, granted, she goes on to question the importance of the certificate earned in such a case. This can ruffle feathers.
There are more science filled books out there, but I am bringing up this book because it says some very important things about training, it says them very well, and bothers to describe the basic principles rather just a cookbook recipe for teaching a trick. I think that most of you folks are agreeing with me on that point..
Before '85, I'm not sure there were any books that even attempted to include operant conditioning specifically....and I guess I think '85 is recent history....and so I am glad to see that more and more books are being written by folks who have a working knowlege of behaviorism.
The reason for my enthusiasm for books such as Culture Clash is also that I think that books suggesting the use of a pinch/choke/ecoller to a beginner who have minimal knowlege is really a bad thing. Culture Clash moralizes but also describes the problems behind the behavioral use of punishment. This is key info for everyone...especially beginners....because athletic dogs can get very frustrating to new owners and the tendency to go heavy on the yank/shock is very strong in such a case. I do get an ethical twinge of rightiousness when I see a trained dog following commands but doing so in a hunched over, cowering manner...yuck...that makes me want to "get moral" on that owner!
I am also re-reading Science and Human Behavior (Skinner, 1952)...now this book is something of a difficult read...but it's a classic and still stands today...required reading for graduate behavioral students. Anyway, the Chapter called "Punishment" begins with a subtitled section "A questionable technique"....and he goes on for a few pages discussing the practical problems with punishment (and I think he does so without making any moral statements). The first 200+ or so pages of the book apply to any organism.
There are definate places for punishment, but it's a good thing to be armed with the down side.
I am interested in reading some of the suggested books on this thread. I know they will be basic, but I love to read the elegant ways in which some otherwise complex subjects are described. Most of my work is in consulting with total beginners to the behavioral world, and I am always interested in clear, user friendly ways of describing the principles of behavior.
And I agree...the "bodygaurds&Koehler" books are crap....but Koehler is such an old-skool classic.
Thanks for all the responses folks...I'm glad to see there some cool/civil/thinking people in this forum! Man I love the internet! I look forward to learning from you.
Kelton

Question:

If not for Koehler, how would we be train attack work – I have always been under the impression that he developed the technique? – (that the military and police is still using today)

No one else has a better track record at training all types of breeds than Mr. Koehler the man him self – even today with the aid of behavioural use experts? – yes/no

Why do we still not have a new born guru or star that embraces all these nice things in training that does not let us get all cool and civil like thinking people- where is the book I ask, to replace the old classic, just thinking out loud ?

- thought -Or have we now become a club of people that know ----- and reference each other as experts with out training our selves.

I wouldn't mind seeing some responses to this last post, but I vote that this be part of a new thread. Maybe under general discussion or just as a new thread in "book reviews".
Call it: "Experts, Gurus, and Books"...or something.

VanCamp wrote: "the most stimulating "training" book I have read in the last few years wasn't a training book at all.... I think the title is Motivation: Learning Theory and Principles."

It's "Fundamentals of Learning and Motivation" by Frank Logan. If you liked that one, you gotta try Flaherty's "Animal Learning and Cognition". It's my all-time, hands-down favorite of them all.

Lindsey's volumes are good quick reference books, but I would never recommend them to someone who wanted a thorough understanding of the material. For me, he tries to cover too much ground and ends up only lightly touching on an awful lot of it. Plus he writes like he's desperately trying to impress someone; it's a really verbose style of writing.

Lee, that's a good point about the Lindsey books. They seem to be more like encyclopedias in the sense that they cover everything...and I'm not entirely sure that I understand how the content of those books is organized.
I'll look up the book on "learning and cognition"....not sure how the author defines cognition. Behaviorist rarely use such a term, but I suppose there may be some way of fitting it in...I don't know.
BTW: after re-reading that last post about gurus, I think I'll just ignore. :rolleyes:

I can see how some of the language in "CC" would turn off a lot of people here. If you just want facts and not editorializing by the author, then it's not the book for you, unless you happen to agree with her. I thought she made some excellent points such as the "Walt Disney vs. BF Skinner" perspectives on dog behavior, and the "Dominance Panacea", examples of both of which I see all the time. I haven't thoroughly read the training section (but I might refer to it for commands at a distance) but it does look rather wordy and not as concise as I would like.

I think it's "The Other End of the Leash" that compares primate vs. canine behavior?

Yup, it is McConnell's book that compares primates and humans/dogs.

Kelton - was it not you who posted this: And I agree...the "body gaurds &Koehler" books are crap....but Koehler is such an old-skool classic.

Thanks for all the responses folks...I'm glad to see there some cool/civil/thinking people in this forum…blabbering sweet nothings yes, based on what? Their experiences from reading books and playing with max in the garden ?

My daddy told me if you can not say any thing good about some one then remain silent, or enter in to debate so that a understanding may be reached, so that we may differ in order to agree at some point but never have to down grade any body. Especially if he is and was a legend that did ground braking work in a time when very little animal let alone human behaviour was studied…...

Well I am seldom civil when confronted by ignorant blanket statements / remarks like this, by people who imo. have not even trained and made a name doing so, sorry I have not had my Coffee yet Kelton, but my beef is this and it is not in any way personal, people who write books take a lot of time doing so and you as a reader have a choice, the choice to read it for what it is worth or to use it as a door stop, but I do not think you have any place to say it is crap, by saying this it reflects a lot about your knowledge and understanding of dog training basics and semantics no one since Koehler has trained as many dogs with one technique, and yes the techniques have to a certain extent become controversial in this modern era of softy’s and tv kids snorting and swallowing things that make them see alians and little green men, or have they? Why – suggestion - are you not rather defending from a Ethology view point at least, there I can talk along as well, and many on the board to and then I will respect you, but to be a joiner – no it just wont fly – where is the substance the evidence the truth I ask?.

Believe me - Van camp can and I am sure will knowing him - do his own thing here, you don’t have to wait for him

VC. - Manstopper, K9 Bodyguards, and Koehler are round file books IMO.

(i.e. put them in the trash) and replace them with what Robert?, who has since stepped up to the stage and claimed the title – I am not aware of any help me here?

So I maintain my question:

Question:

If not for Koehler, how would we be train attack work – I have always been under the impression that he developed the technique? – (that the military and police is still using today)

No one else has a better track record at training all types of breeds than Mr. Koehler the man him self – even today with the aid of behavioural use experts? – yes/no

Why do we still not have a new born guru or star that embraces all these nice things in training that does not let us get all cool and civil like thinking people- where is the book I ask, to replace the old classic, just thinking out loud ?

- thought -Or have we now become a club of people that know ----- and reference each other as experts with out training our selves.

By 'cool/civil/thinking people', my intent was to say that I appreciate reasonable discussion rather than shock and outrage at ideas that don't agree with their own. If a person doesn't agree, the civilized thing to do is to explain your differences rather than insult without explaining. Acting in this way is not a sign of softness or weakness. The internet DEFINATELY tends to make people a lot "bolder" than when met in person...rudeness abounds on the net...so I was glad to see a reasonable discussion on a topic that can get heated at times.

My experience comes from my studies of behavioral science and working with all sorts of organisms including dogs and humans, but it was the formal studies that were of greatest importance for my needs. Experience alone would have at best left me with techniques used by cruel circus trainers centuries ago.

Koehler's book was a fun read. It was my training bible when I was 19. It peaked my interest. Nevertheless, I wouldn't dare suggest it to anyone these days. It would be, then, "crap" in the sense that it would be "bad" to suggest it to a reader. Now, if they were interested in it in some sort of historical context. Fine then. Koehler was probably a charming person as well.

I don't know much about Ethology and have my doubts about it's usefulness to a trainer (I won't go into that in this post)...at least I would say that a full course of study in Ethology would not be needed at all. I have studied Behavior Analysis and the Experimental Analysis of Behavior. I don't know if one would say that I am an expert or not....science does not work like that....it's just a method of finding things out.

Anyway, sure...you can throw your suggested books in the trash and replace them with the books already suggested in the posts above. I am sorry that they don't have guru status, but that is perhaps a good thing. Keep guru's where they belong in religion and mysticism.

---If not for Koehler, how would we be train attack work – I have always been under the impression that he developed the technique? – (that the military and police is still using today)---
He may have developed some techniques, not sure, but that does not mean that this book is the way to go...and yes, everyone probably does some of the things mentioned in his book...military/police included. For instance, we all continue to use leashes! (I'd have to re-read the book to check for other methods)


---No one else has a better track record at training all types of breeds than Mr. Koehler the man him self – even today with the aid of behavioural use experts? – yes/no---

I don't know how we would measure someone up on this issue. I think Koehler would be quite happy with the way things have developed since his time, though.