Mike, you're only excused because you have a pup. You still deserve a good ribbing and probably more. . .

lol

Mike, unless your younge dogs are out of Brawnson they are not relevant to this thread. So your comments need to be filed under "AND YOUR POINT IS?"

The dogs I have seen from Brawnson were mature dogs. They were dogs that were being shown for a title. They were club dogs - they had no drive.

I have personally seen Brawnson in the last two USA National police dog championships. Have you?

The same thing goes for Michael Talyor Rivers - we are not talking about fight drive in puppies. Maybe you are just being a wise guy. What part of this are you missing? Have you ever seen Broawnson compete? Have you ever seen one of Brawnsons dogs compete in a trial? When you have you will be qualified to voice your opinions on this dog. In the meantime you are blowing hot air on something you don't have a clue about.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Bobby:
Mike, unless your younge dogs are out of Brawnson they are not relevant to this thread. So your comments need to be filed under "AND YOUR POINT IS?"

The dogs I have seen from Brawnson were mature dogs. They were dogs that were being shown for a title. They were club dogs - they had no drive.

Mike's dog IS a Brawnson son, read the first post from him.

I notice your feelings tend to be a little hot on this subject. Please keep a cool head. Remember this is why they are called "discussion" boards.... we are not all supposed to agree. Just keep it clean.

I agree

Bobby, what's your reason for being down on this Brawnson dog. I fail to see the point you are trying to make. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I agree with you about too many times dogs are bred for their titles. But so what, it's done all the time. Did you ever have a problem with the breeders or Brawnson. Did you compete in any of the competitions he was entered. I'm missing something here.

I'm just asking to try to get an idea where you are coming from.

I'm kinda slow so please help me understand. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I don't know Brawson from squat. Maby he's good, maby he isn't. What I see is the same discussion about every stud dog that ever walked. If the pups are crap, the stud gets the blame. If the pups are great, the stud gets credit. Why doesn't anyone give credit or blame to the quality of bitches the stud is used on?

 Quote:

Originally posted by Bobby:
Mike, unless your younge dogs are out of Brawnson they are not relevant to this thread. So your comments need to be filed under "AND YOUR POINT IS?"

Ummmmmm go back and reread there smartass...I think I'm one of the few around, much less here, that has a Stormfront's Brawnson SON! (if you know him as well as you claim you do, then you'd know he produces a lot of bitches)

 Quote:

more posted by Bobby:
The dogs I have seen from Brawnson were mature dogs. They were dogs that were being shown for a title. They were club dogs - they had no drive.

so the few dogs you saw make up all of them? suppose you might call my pup (yes 10mos is still a pup) low drive too huh? Well, if I was used to dogs with prey drive out of balance like ohhhhh let's see some of the "top" sport dogs (you know, the one's that can't fight their way out of a paper bag), then yeah, I might think a more balanced dog was lower in drive. to use you're own phrase..."AND YOUR POINT IS???"

 Quote:

and even more by Bobby:
we are not talking about fight drive in puppies. Maybe you are just being a wise guy. What part of this are you missing? Have you ever seen Broawnson compete? Have you ever seen one of Brawnsons dogs compete in a trial? When you have you will be qualified to voice your opinions on this dog. In the meantime you are blowing hot air on something you don't have a clue about.

ummm ok, so now we have to see the dog compete in person. Second hand knowledge from someone more experienced doesn't count, because we "weren't there to see it for ourselves"? And ummmm, puppies don't have a "fight drive" (still debateable as to if it's a "real" drive or a combination of drives interacting). So let me ask YOU, what part are you missing? Somebody leave you a treat in your Cheerios this morning or are you naturally this chipper?

(and VanCamp, I did practice restraint with this jackass <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

There's more to this story then we are being told!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> :rolleyes:

Mike Russell posted;

 Quote:

(and VanCamp, I did practice restraint with this jackass )

Mike, what type of medication were you on before writing this post?? You may lose your reputation being such a nice guy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I would hate to see what would be said if he saw my male GSD work. Long as it's nothing bad about my PUP!!! I'll keep the leash on.

Nice post Mike. . .you only took off one glove. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

OK, you jokers lets get back on track.

I think one problem with any open stud is quality of bitches like OLDEARTH said. I don't know of too many people out there with proven bitches seeking out open studs. There are some I'm sure that are very good breeders, but I'll put money on the fact that most of these people are owners of one or two females that are interested in breeding, but new to the game. Their females are rarely proven, and they usually don't have a lot of experience. So even if the owner of the stud does some good checking on the females, it is still a crap shoot. Craps is a tough game to win. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

There of course is also the problem that we will never see most of any stud's progeny in this country because most pups don't go to working homes. Then if they do go to working homes, there just isn't the established working dog community in this country yet. That means inexperienced trainers, helpers, and handlers for the most part. How is a dog gonna excel and get noticed in our quagmire of dog trainers and clubs here in the US. The chances are not good.

Some days ago there was another thread that talked about studs in the US getting wasted. There are a handful of good stud dogs here and they are bred and used well, but their pups get thrown into the mix and are most likely never heard of again. Anybody ever been to Europe? There are clubs and trainers up the wazzoo. . .no wonder German dogs are bred more and used for work more AND recognized more. Their progeny have a better chance of being adequately trained and shown.

I challenge anyone to name a stud here in the US that everyone can agree is a GREAT stud dog. Sorry to use you as an example Ed, but even Otis has his nay sayers. I've heard enough crap about him from some local jerks that I might think twice about buying a Leerburg dog if I didn't know more about Ed.

VanCamp
I think you gave a perfect explination why breeders like Ed are very selective about the the bitches their studs are used on. Any breeder will tell you that even the best combination, on paper, can still produce crap, and I've never heared anyone say it was because of a crappy or unproven bitch. How many really good bitches are bred to studs just because they are avaliable? It don't happen to often.