Your third dog went crazy towards everyone else but you indicate elswhere the temperament of the dog has not to do with genetics but with training only?

A contradiction in my mind.

People are not trying to razz you and are actually treating you quite well on this board.

Whether or not your lines are good or not -- who knows -- what is right up front?

I assume both parents of both dogs have at least earned Sch III or comparable working title and come from a line of dogs all the way back on both sides for several generations with such titles? That is typically what you see of working stock -- or at least a Sch I or II on the dam who is still working towards titles.....with the grandmothers having attained such titles

By your take the pedigrees are impressive but I assume that you realize the showlines maeans nothing on this board and sure Grafental is a DDR kennel but just because a dog has some Grafental bloodlines somewhere does not mean much to anyone.

Is breeding good for the dam? I think that is an old wives tale. of course there are risks inherent with breeding.

Tracie wrote: "But I have people telling me, that mixing DDR and American would not be good. It would bring about puppies that have no place in society. What they meant by that I do not know. So if anyone can help me out and knows what was meant by that I would truly like to hear from you."


You asked the question, you have been given some good answers by people that have actual experience in working dogs. . .but so far you havn't liked what they've been telling you and you're arguing.


Here's my answer to your question. American show lines are genetically garbage for working ability. DDR bloodlines from proven parents are pretty good for working ability. If you mix them you'll be taking on the crap genetics of the American bloodlines and the OK genetics of the DDR bloodlines. You'll end up with mostly crap for working dogs, nice pets I'm sure, but you're decreasing your chances for breeding good working dogs.


Now, this isn't much different than what anyone else has already said. . .so if you don't like the anwswers you're getting on this board from people with experience training working dogs (something you don't have) then why don't you go ask your question somewhere where you are likely to get an answer you'll like?


There are plenty of GSD boards where people don't care about working ability or what it takes to breed a working dog. That's where I'd look for support if I were you.

Originally posted by Tracie Stahl:
Well, the wolves can come, because yes, it is the owners and the trainers that make the dog. Traci, there's only so much a hander can do, even a great handler. Every dog has a certain genetic level of potential that they can reach, which varies from dog to dog. No two dogs are alike, as you may think. It's not just up to us to make it happen.

That would be like saying every basketball player can be as great of a player as Michael Jordan with the right coach. And you know that's not true. Because very few people have the same tools as Michael Jordan; the drive, athleticism, mental-toughness, etc. The coach can lead the way to a championship, but only with the tools that can get him there.

Those same tools apply to the great dogs out there.

By the way, if you're looking for an honest answer, you've come to the right board. People here are passionate about working dogs, all the way to their roots. Opinions don't exist anymore, only Fact and Fiction.

Nancy, yes, it may have sounded like I contradicted myself and I see why. My dog did go crazy toward everyone, except me. If I was there the dog was fine. She somehow learned at a very young age to climd a fence, it wasn't children--I have none. So I started putting her on a 25 foot chain while I was at work. I first attached her to a 2 room dog house, which she pulled completely to the back door. I then put her on a circle pull--to keep from tangling--and she broke the chain. I advanced to a choker, she broke the choker. I bought a thicker choker, she broke that--all from pulling. Fearing for her, I invested in a six foot fence. Within a month, she was climbing out again. I then invested in electric to go around the fence. She still climbed out, even stepping on the electric. I thought maybe the fence had some how been turned off, wrong. I found out by touching it. As I said, if I was there anybody could touch her. If I was gone, the neighborhood feared her. We lived on a street that went down hill and one day, she stopped a boys bike by grabbing the back tire and the neighbor said the bike came to a complete stop. She had also grab the mailmans mail bag. She also had a stand-off with three of the neighbors--luukily I came home, the one had a tow chain and was trying to use it to get her back in the yard. She looked like a giant wolf with her hair all standing up. I had to have her put down, because she just kept getting worse. I had tried the Prozac that the doctor recommended and it did no good. He did a catscan that showed nothing wrong. He said it must be genetic and I do agree.

Robert, you are right. Maybe I do need to go to a different area, this one reminds me a little of my ex-husband with Cracker Barrel.

What do I mean? Cracker Barrel serves breakfast, lunch and dinner, but since the majority of the time we ate breakfast--to him it was a breakfast place. Some people think that certain things are only good for one thing and to try and change it is completely wrong. So I do understand narrow-mindedness.
A few people have thier mind set that only DDR is the best and to mix bloodlines that have already been mixed in the past is a bad thing. I guess that could be true in humans also. Maybe our bloodlines is what makes us who we all are today, not our training or our ability of knowing right from wrong.

Cracker barrel DOES make a great breakfast <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> .

Mike, I understand what you are saying and I do not believe my 2 dogs are a like. They both have thier own personality. I know that genetics has alot to do with them mentally and physically, all I said is they both have a great temperment, high drive and come from excellent bloodlines. They both learn quickly and are eager to please.
I also believe that "IF," or when I breed them their pups will be the same way. Breeding will not be for quite a while, a year and a half, or more, but it is hard to judge pups that are not here yet. Both of my dogs are beautifl, one black and tan (my female) and one grey (my male-or sable). I plan on them both excelling in OB., agility and herding and possibly SCHH1, I do not need them going further because I do not have need for a SCHH2/3 dog. I believe SCHH1 (correct me if wrong) is basic protection training.

Schutzhund, today, is nothing about real protection work.....unfortunately.

Tracie, please leave the breeding to professionals. You may well have two great dogs, but raising a litter and placing pups into the right homes is a big responsibility - to the dogs, the pups, and to the prospective owners. It isn't something to do because it would be fun, or because of some old tale about it being good for the mother.

I understand your pride in your dogs, and you sound like you really want the best for them. But you've also made some questionable decisions with your past dogs (serious health problems, behavioral problems, and a 3/4 WOLF BREED???) You also haven't talked about any direct experience with real working dogs, or in shutzhund. All in all, it doesn't sound like you have a strong base of knowlege for any of your arguments.

I'm new to this sport as well, but there is one piece of advice I can confidently give. LISTEN to what these guys are saying. They do know what they're talking about.

Hi Tracie,

I think it's very sad that you aren't taking the good advice that you are getting here. If you really did your homework on GSDs you would see the replies to your post are correct. You don't have the knowledge necessary to be a good breeder. Although I'm sure it won't change your mind about breeding, you really should look at the following:

So you want to breed your wonderful dog?

Where do Brightstar dogs come from?

Easy to Say No

I have three dogs that all excel at something, my Malinois from Police lines is amazing in OB and is going to train for SAR, my female GSD that appears to be a mix of working and show lines is great at OB and will go on to agility and I intend to have her certified to be a therapy dog. My West German show line male excels in being really good looking and is good at OB. He goes with me on home the visits I do for GSD rescue so I can see how the family interacts with a GSD. All three are nice dogs. All three are beautiful. All three are intelligent and easy to train. All three came from shelters. IMO, breeding should be left to those who know what they are doing. There is no shortage of nice, beautiful, easy to train dogs. You have yet to say anything that would make your dogs good breeding candidates. You also might want to spend some time volunteering in a shelter or for a rescue before you decide to breed.