When I mean hardness I don´t mean that this have to be a rank dog that will bite you if correct it, thats two different things even if they could be found in some hard dogs. A hard dog is a very bold and independent dog, who lacks the "willignes to please" that could be found in a softer dog. Thats way a hard dog are so hard to train in a protectionsport, where the demands on precision is high, but they could very well be good PSD because there you don´t need this willignes to please and presicion in the same amount, but even there a to hard dog isn´t wanted because it´s to hard for the handler to get the dog to do what the handler wants if it´s to independent and is so hard that a correction will have minor effects on the dogs behaviour.
A friend who breeds jagtdterriers said about hardness, " a hard dog that during a hunt gets hurt by his prey quickly forgetts this, and are ready to hunt the next day again, a to soft dog that gets hurt by the prey in a hunt doesen´t want to hunt next day because he carry the experience with his prey in his mind" But he also said that if the dog isn´t to soft, he could overcome this problem if he has a strong lust for hunting, then he overcomes his "bad memories". And as already pointed out harrdness interacts with other drives to.

Talking about changing statments..............It would be common-sense that punching a dog , or smacking it with a shovel, are not things that one normally does to train. I do not feel that dog aggression is usefull, and therefore a dog should understand that this is not acceaptable and I will not tolerate it, and if he does show dog aggression for no apparent reason except to be an a------ then he will be punished. That is my view. It is a useless behavior. One might argue that for example the dog fires-up on a dog, then, make him heel and channel that aggression towards his ball or tug.......that is subject to another topic.
I do not like slip-collars, chokers, or buckle-collars. I can use a choker, if it is a softer dog, but that is it. Ig you think you can give an effective correction with a slip-collar on a hard tempermented dog, ah.........I have no desire to change my tool as I have tried other things, then the prong, and have found them on a hard-tempermented dogs, to be useless. I do not agree with that if I beleive in a correction it will work. This makes no logical sense to me at all. If you are in a bad mood, yes the dog will pick-up on this, but when I train, my temperment stays happy and fun. At least I try.LOL. If something goes on that I don't like, I change it so the dog knows I am not happy, and then I go back to being happy again and calm. But with a hard tempermented dog, well, you try rowing to England on a row boat, while I'll take Cruise Ship. You can believe you will get there, maybe even get a few 100 miles, but I doubt you will ever make it.
I do not agree that with your views on correction. I also do not think that you must fight a dog to get the results, but with a hard-tempermented dog, there is a good chance that at some point there will be a confrontion. With alot of these dogs if the drive is there, they will as they mature, will not give you the ball. If you can get him to out great, but if you know the dog and at that time you know you are going to loose your postion in the pack, why try. I am a firm believer in Pack Drive, with any temperment dog.
To comment on a part of Ellen's post, people do not seek out these type of dogs to breed to in order to compenstate for poor training, they do it so they can produce dogs that can work. These types of dogs will normally produce the best working dogs. For the most part, show people really do not care what kind of nerves thier dogs have. This is what is wrong with the GSD today.

I have a great example of temperments; Lord is known for aggression, but people don't like him because he puts inot alot of his dog's a soft temperment. THe Son's and daughters that I have seen were good in protection, but could not tolerate a correction. They act like thier world was crashing down on them from the raise of a handlers voice. While these dogs were strong in the protection they did NOT have a hard temperment. Anyone that has came in contact with few of Lord's dogs knows this. Maybe this will help in the defination if one has something to compare to.

I have heard that the East Germans deliberately bred handler-sensitivity into their border patrol/working prospects. The reasoning was that B.P. breeders knew that many officers were not highly experienced dog trainers and that their having to deal with extremely handler-hard or rank dogs would unnecessarily complicate the training process. Sounds like sound logic to me, at least from the breeding perspective.

Pete Felknor

That would make sense to me. I think this is why, while they tries to breed good biting dogs, and handler softness, they produced some nervy dogs that were not really of great quality.

Michael,

I thought the purpose of using an example was to support your point. If that wasn't your intent why post the comment?

Again you make my point for me. You have made a descision that you are going to use the prong because you believe that is the only thing that will work. You DON'T believe that the other types of collars will work, and they don't. Why is this so difficult? By taking this attitude you have lost the battle before you even start.

There are some things that gain momentum because they have always been done that way. It doesn't make it so.

As I have said before you will get what you train for. The dog will make every effort to meet your expectations. If you expect the the dog won't respond to a correction, it won't. If you expert the dog to have long term rank issues, it will. By making the descisions before you start, you will get what you expect because you will train for it.

Nice to see that 113 degree temperatures don't fry your brain Richard. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Nope, I love it. I moved here for a reason.

Making what point for you? That is not what I read inot your posts.
If you think that if I beleive in a correction BEFORE I go train it will work, but if I do NOT believe in it it will not work, give me a break. If you expect any crediable trainer to believe that then I will tell you that the Brooklyen Bridge is for sale at a good price. :rolleyes: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
If you think that the methods you post are going to work or have worked on a hard-tempermented dog, then good luck. You and I have two ideas of a hard tempermented dog. You are right on one point, I think about what my dog will do in my next training session, then train and then think about what happenended. I think this is the only way to go.
When working a dog on the streets you need <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> reliable control, you simply cannot get that with the methods you described with a hard dog. The same goes for Schutzhund, there is no way to train the exersises for points in that matter with a hard dog. There is no way to give an effective correction to (one that leaves an imprint)a hard dog with a buckle-collar, or a slip.
If you think that this is the way to go, then great. If you have fun, your dogs work at a level you are happy with, then that is fine, and really the goal of training. But for me, I find it hard to believe. Dogs do not really think. They learn from memory.
What you describe sounds like something from "Yoda". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ellen:

 Quote:

So what can we learn from this? First, we learn that dogs instinctively want to be #1 in rank, or as close to #1 as possible -- especially confident dogs with courage and sound temperment.

Butch: Ellen I agree with this. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Butch:

 Quote:

My preception of a PP or PSD would be one with extreme confidience, solid temperment, strong defense drive and fight drive. With Confidence and solid temperment paramount.

Where does this stand on answering stigs question;

stig;Or is hardness related to the level of courage and good nerves in a dog?

Butch: I don't care for using the term courage, to me me courage can be fleeting, where confidence is sustaining. A confident K-9 can work out how to deal with new stimuli or situtions, where courage is only a possible reaction to the stimuli or sitution.

Am I in the wrong ballpark for game, or did I just get there after the game was over. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />