Very often in the protection training threads we'll be talking about dogs who don't qualify as "well-behaved socialized dog(s) that can be trusted with normal human behaviors (play) and other dogs (in your home)." (Jenn)


And it isn't always necessary for a good working dog to be social and of a temperament that allows him to have free access to normal human behaviors and other dogs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


There are some very nice dogs that would be an absolute terror in a regular social pet life. . .but they are damn fine working critters.


Social aggression, as we've basically outlined here, is a much desired trait in a working shepherd. . . in my opinion.

I'll take the "Damn Fine Working Critter" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

OH MY GOSH, I can't believe that everyone thinks that it's great that Howard Scott's dog behaves this way. That is normal, DESIREABLE, and something we look for in a good working dog.

He posted:

 Quote:

I like to play rough with my dog, wrestling in the living room or in the backyard and if I get her in a submissive posture then she will get very aggressive. Sometimes she will bite me(not hard), but she will let me know that she will not tolerate this.

So it's ok for my dog to direct play and not tolerate it by biting me if she doesn't like a position I put her in?

Ed Frawley writes on http://leerburg.com/dominanc.htm

 Quote:

If that dog challenges the handler when he tries to make him lay down or tries to give him a bath, he (the dog) is saying that he doesn't want to do this. If the handler is inexperienced, I must say that backing down is the right decision, unless he wants to push the issue and take the risk of being bit.

Howard Scott wrote:

 Quote:

I also had a friend who tried rough-housing with her and needless to say he did this one time only. He did not know any better and did it while I stepped out of the room.

If I have a friend over and they play with my dog, I should not be surprised if my dog terrifies my friend WHILE THEY ARE PLAYING?

Howard Scott

 Quote:

I have also had two different dogs at the house since I have had her and I have seen some hellacious dog fights. She will T-off with the dogs and she will attack them and not let up, even if I try to beat her off of the dogs.

It's normal, expected, and fine when I can never have any other dog in my home, even when I'm in the room or I a fight will result that EVEN I can't break up by BEATING them to break it up.

Ed Frawley writes on http://leerburg.com/dog-agg.htm

 Quote:

You know that this is the situation when the dog will mind in normal circumstances but when it sees another dog the desire to fight (or protect itself) is so strong that it loses self control and becomes aggressive again, even when the owner is standing there telling him not to.

The ultimate training goal for the handler is to make the dog understand that “IT MUST MIND.” The owner must be able to convince the dog that NOT MINDING IS NOT AN OPTION. This can only be done with force in corrections. Not everyone can train a dog to do this. Some people have soft temperaments and cannot correct a dog to the level that the dog respects their command. These people either have to find a new home for the dog or keep their dogs away from other dogs and animals. People need to understand that this work is not rocket science. There is no magic training method that is going to make the dog mind. I often get emails from people who have gone to dog behaviorists that have tried to modify the behavior of the dog through halties and other foolish methods. With most dogs these goofy methods fail because the behaviorist simply doesn’t understand pack behavior and pack drive.

VanCamp Robert stated:

 Quote:

but they are damn fine working critters.


Social aggression, as we've basically outlined here, is a much desired trait in a working shepherd. . . in my opinion.

I have never heard that any of those behaviors are desired and a part of a 'working' dog. I have know working GSD's for police officers that do not behave like that. My pup comes from Sch III dogs and I expect MUCH better behavior from her (and get it) and I know her parents didn't behave like that.

If to get a working dog, I would have to also be afraid to ever have another dog visit my home. Or anyone be near or (God forbid) play with my dog, then I would have NEVER gotten a dog from working lines.

Ed Frawley has many great articles on this site and here's a quote from http://leerburg.com/dominanc.htm

 Quote:

I shake my head when I hear people say " I want a big ALPHA dog for my protection dog or my police dog." When I hear this I know that these people do not understand dogs, temperament or training. The alpha dog is stubborn and difficult to train. They do what they want to do not what you want them to do. They should not be police service dogs or personal protection dogs because they are too difficult to control. My police dog is one of the toughest dogs I have ever owned in my life and he does not have a dominant bone in his body. This is the type of dog people should want for a service dog or a family protection dog.

OH MY GOSH Jen, you are completely missing the entire point and you are completely straying away from the original idea. The only thing I wanted to know is if "social aggression"(you know, the topic) had anything to do with the behaviors that my dog has shown. I have already said this once and I do not like repeating myself, it is alot of typing and my fingers get tired. I know I have very little experience but, I can tell that you have no experience with strong working line dogs. You are making my dog out to be like a monster And your opinions have nothing to do with what I had intented to discuss. Nevertheless, You are twisting my words around because you do not understand much about these types of behaviors and I am tired of arguing my way back into this topic. When I was talking about playing rough with my dog, I mean Rough!! I wrestle with my dogs for fun all the time and we do get rough. It is not like some playing that "you" would do with your dog like prancing around with daisies and dressing him up for tea time or something. My dog has never bitten me for real in this situation and she never would. She knows that I am the pack leader. she just gets serious and acts aggressivly when I start to piss her off and we stop. Sometimes she will nip me to let me know when to quit and we do so everything is fine. She does not like to be pressured hard. As for the case with my friend, Well he was a dumbass for messing with my dog like he did. He thought since he had dogs at home he could treat them like his own. he did not get bitten, but it was damn sure close. It was my fault for leaving my dog alone with this guy and it has and never will happen again. As far as what you quote from Ed about the dog biting because someone was trying to give a dog a bath or trying to put the dog in a down. This is not even the same thing as what I described and these arent even the same kind of dogs. The dogs Ed are talking about are overly dominant dogs that are handler aggressive and have a pack issue. This IS unacceptable behavior. My dog does not challenge me as a pack leader and I can do obedience without conflict. This is what Ed was talking about with regard that the dog MUST mind. These dogs need a severe correction and they must be taught that this will not be tolerated. As far as my dog being dog aggressive, well let's just say that i can take her to the schutzhund field and she is fine with dogs, but at the house it is a different story. I learned quick after a couple of fights that this bitch needed to be isolated because she is so dominant. She will establish herself leader of the pack regardless. This is just her nature, she will not have it any other way. It is my place, as a responsible dog owner, that dogs like this need to be kept in a safe environment all the time to ensure these problems do not occure again. this is natural and normal in these types of dogs, something you know very little about.
You are right about one thing. You should have NEVER gotten involved with working lines until you have learned more about the behaviors and drives these dogs have. People like You either need a show line dog or a hairless lap dog, not a working line German shepherd.

No throwing sand in the sandbox!

Keep things on topic. Jenn, it is generally a good rule that if you do not know about a topic, that you stay out of that topic. Trying to make the dog in this post out to be a misfit isn't working.

The only thing I see a problem with in Howard's post is the fact that he let these things happen. I think he has since realized that those situations should have been avoided entirely. This dog shouldn't be involved in doggie play time. Nor in human idiot time... It doesn't mean he has a bad dog, it just means he must be a little more vigilant in his handling of the dog.

Howard, Honestly the wrestling thing bugs me. Why would you want to put your dog into a position where she feels that she must tell you to back off? What does that do for her trust in you? Just something to think about.

No more attacks from either side.

The only thing I see a problem with in Howard's post is the fact that he let these things happen. I think he has since realized that those situations should have been avoided entirely. This dog shouldn't be involved in doggie play time. Nor in human idiot time... It doesn't mean he has a bad dog, it just means he must be a little more vigilant in his handling of the dog. I can agree with that!

Jenn,
This isn't an attack, but many of us are working dog people, and it seems as though you're viewing this more from an AKC or pet owner "every dog needs to get along with every other dog" standpoint. ( and if you've gotten like five SchH III"s in the past - I apologize in advance! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Jenn:
"If I have a friend over and they play with my dog, I should not be surprised if my dog terrifies my friend WHILE THEY ARE PLAYING?"

Jenn, I have one friend that can play with my male dog - anyone else and it'd be a trip to the local ER. Of course I'd never let a situation like that occur. And I consider this a once in a life time dog. Most people that see my male work view his working ability as very high - but that doesn't diminish the fact that he's dangerous in most situations, it's just up to me to control him.

Jenn:
"I have never heard that any of those behaviors are desired and a part of a 'working' dog. I have know working GSD's for police officers that do not behave like that"

Please note that many of us with a ton of active experience with police patrol dogs say over and over again that there are *many* dogs being actively used on the streets that are not up to the task. It could well be that the GSD's that you've seen on police department's fall into that group. High level working police dogs are usually not allowed to play with people other than their handler. And a fair amount of them are a little edgy in life ( Nitro comes to mind, a dog with a ton of real life bites )

Jenn:
"If to get a working dog, I would have to also be afraid to ever have another dog visit my home. Or anyone be near or (God forbid) play with my dog, then I would have NEVER gotten a dog from working lines."

I don't think any experienced working dog person takes their dog to visit another dog. If you're in a SchH club, do all the dogs gather and have a social hour? I've never seen that in any SchH club that I've been to - and I've been to *a lot* of them!
Working dogs are just that. Many people get dogs from working lines and can decrease their drives to make them more acceptable to an American household - but calling it a working dog after the drives are decreased is kinda unfair.

A better link to Armin Winkler's relevant article about the situation that is worth a read:
http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/terms2.html

Will, thanks for you comments and replies. I really don't feel attacked as much as feeling that by reading most of the other postings, this 'social aggression' is not only normal but a desireable trait in a true working dogs.

Because I was afraid that people would be thinking I'm 'just' a pet owner AKC type person, I posted the excerpts from Ed Frawley. It's not that I don't agree these 'working' dogs can have aggression issues and problems other dogs don't. I ABSOLUTELY know they can and many do.

My point was that once you know what's going on aggression wise, you have a responsibility as a dog owner in this world of ours to work with the dog to keep the drive and the work and take away the 'unreliable' and undirected aggression. If we want to dis-regard the fact that is seems 2 of the 2 dogs let into Howards house were in such a brutal dog fight he couldn't even break it up by beating on the dogs.... let's look at the 'obedience' issue that his dog did NOT listen to him when he was trying to break up the fight.

Ed Frawley on http://www.leerburg.com/dog-agg.htm states:

Unfortunately, all too often normal obedience training does not solve the aggression problem. The issue is because the pack-leader issue has not been settled with the dog. Pure and simple when the aggression continues the dog still does not look to the owner as the boss.

You know that this is the situation when the dog will mind in normal circumstances but when it sees another dog the desire to fight (or protect itself) is so strong that it loses self control and becomes aggressive again, even when the owner is standing there telling him not to.

The ultimate training goal for the handler is to make the dog understand that “IT MUST MIND.” The owner must be able to convince the dog that NOT MINDING IS NOT AN OPTION. This can only be done with force in corrections. Not everyone can train a dog to do this. Some people have soft temperaments and cannot correct a dog to the level that the dog respects their command. These people either have to find a new home for the dog or keep their dogs away from other dogs and animals. People need to understand that this work is not rocket science. There is no magic training method that is going to make the dog mind. I often get emails from people who have gone to dog behaviorists that have tried to modify the behavior of the dog through halties and other foolish methods. With most dogs these goofy methods fail because the behaviorist simply doesn’t understand pack behavior and pack drive.

While I know you don't trust my opinion on things, once again here's a quote from Ed, and I see it as directly applicable to when Howards friend had problems when he was playing with his dog. http://www.leerburg.com/dominac2.htm

Showing Aggression to Family Friends:

When a dog shows aggression to certain visitors to the house this is a form of dominance. People with small dogs think this may be cute, while others are pleased that their dog is acting protective. Both are wrong. This behavior needs to be controlled. The dog needs to be taught that this behavior is unacceptable.

The easiest way is to verbally scold the dog and put him in his crate or put him in a different room. When you show him that you control his environment all the time you are establishing yourself as the leader. In a pack, the pack leader is the one that determines who fights and when. If we allow our dogs to determine who to attack on their own, we are allowing his dominance to take hold.

People that protection train dogs (in Schutzhund or police work) may be thinking that this is bogus because these dogs go out and work on their own. The fact is that Schutzhund dogs, personal protection dogs and/or police service dogs do not work on their own. Through training the handler establishes the rules of engagement. The dog learns when it is and is not acceptable to bite. The fact is protection training helps establish pack order as long as everything else in the dog’s life related to dominance is done properly.

What I'm trying to point out is NOT that these instances don't and won't happen. I realize they will. My point is just using the 'oh my dog has social dominance issues' is not an excuse. I did not get that anything was done to resolve any of the issues. Just that no one plays with his dog any more.

Once again, my feelings aren't hurt and I didn't feel attacked so much as not understood. And, though I don't have time to do Schutzhund with my 6 month old pup, she's from all Schutzund lines, both parents came from Germany and all all titled with SchIII's except my pups Mom who only has a Sch1. http://www.wildhauskennels.com/docs.php?url=blitterpedigree.html if you need to check to see the pedigree.

Will Rambeau, I forgot to mention I read the article at http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/terms2.html when you first posted it and I agree it is excellent. Only how crazy is it that when I read it, it seems to agree with my points. And everyone else thinks it agrees with Howards!

I see Unfortunately, this form of aggression is not very common in our dogs anymore, because many people find it to be socially unacceptable. Dogs today are supposed to be social and to a certain degree friendly. And while I see nothing wrong with a social dog, I personally also see nothing wrong with a socially aggressive dog. These dogs are not unpredictable menaces to society or vicious animals. They simply have inborn motivations that include this form of aggression. Social aggression is a trainable trait, meaning it can be directed and controlled. Naturally that requires the right handler, so that accidents are prevented. I added the bold to the quote.

And

The trend in breeding has been to breed dogs who do not have social aggression. And that may be what many people want. The point I would like to make is that social aggression is nothing that should be made out to be something evil. It is a valuable trait in dogs that are in the right hands. Such dogs do demand a high degree of responsibility and vigilance on the part of the handler. Socially aggressive dogs who are also dominant are difficult to handle and to train and should be in the hands of experts. Once again I absolutely agree with that and the degree of 'expert' needed must be phenominal (sp?).