Ivan

I personally do not feel there is ANY use for social aggression in a SAR dog. These dogs are very loyal to their OWN pack but usually very aggressive to outsiders. One doesn't want a dominant dog for SAR either or a dog that is constantly looking to establish leadership. Compliance, high hunt/search drives, agility, willingness to please, sociability with other dogs and toward people is a must. In training, the VICTIM plays with the dog upon the find...A socially aggressive dog is NOT going to play with a stranger...

SAR dogs deal with 'victims' like lost alzheimer patients, schizophrenics off their meds, lost children...searches can be done through properties or farms where there are loose farm dogs running around--so dog aggression is also a big 'no no'...many victims may show fear and lash out at the dog when found...others may run...others scream esp. children...others can actually 'attack' the dog...having a socially aggressive dog with high fight drive...is only going to make this victim a 'victim for the second time'. This is a dangerous situation with a dog like this. I mean there is a reason why still the majority of 'purebreds' in SAR are Labs or GR's. This type of temperament seems to be most desired.

Maybe if a dog like this has a high enough hunt drive...then the possibility of cadaver detection might be a possibility but certainly not live victims or where searches are conducted in groups or in unknown terrain where the dog may be out of sight.

I don't know that I would say fight drive is A PART OF social aggression. I think they are two separate components which happen to work or appear together.

In SAR you want 'focus' and not the 'intensity' a socially aggressive dog brings with him.

Brigita <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

>>Or is it the other way around as Dr. Raiser has to say: "The fundamental component of fighting drive is the active part of the aggressive drive, social aggression."?

I understand his statement to mean that in order to have a fight drive then the dog must also be socially aggressive...however the reverse is different again...one can have a socially aggressive dog but that doesn't mean it possesses fight drive.

Again not sure if one is a component of the other because then ALL socially aggressive dogs would possess fight drive and this isn't so from what I read and researched. However, those which do exhibit fight drive; almost always also carry social aggression.

Hope it makes sense??!! lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you Brigita, it does make sense.

But i still like the idea of social aggression being class of multiple similiar (or better yet with similiar purpose) behaviours. As in:
Competitive-social aggression(consists of):
-Food-elicited aggression
-Non-food object elicited / possession aggression
-Resting area-elicited aggression
-Social interaction/alliance-control-elicited aggression aggression
-Space-control-elicited aggression
-Sexual-control-elicited aggression
-Other resource-elicited aggression, non specified.
-Dueling fights
-Dominance aggression

Dueling fights i see as fight drive, whell maybe one other component needed would be strong play drive.

I get your point about SAR dogs, i was thinking like: if you can teach socialy aggressive dog to B&H than you can teach it to do SAR. I see now that would be playing with fire big time.

But focus against intensity? Seing strong dog willing to fight do reviere in wood is something realy impressive.

Again; i have no experience with SAR dogs.

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:
There are plenty of dogs who trial in Europe that suck, BTW. LOL

Now, now; how can you say something like that?
With all those cz and ddr dogs we have in Europe how can that be true? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> :rolleyes:

All water. Damn...

Well I was not trying to bogart anyone's thread but asking

Do you really need to have a dog that is always looking for a fight to have a dog that will truly protect you when the chips are down? That is my bottom line.

Forget the SAR dog thing -- I have stayed away from replying as there are several things said about them that I know I do not agree with and it is hard to bite my tongue but the thread was about protection.

Do you see the breed as a whole needing to go that way (social aggression) or that outliers are needed to keep a balance in the breed (as many current sports dogs have prey drive but would fall apart if challenged).

I guess I ask about the original vision as I understand it -- a dog who would not pick fights, loves children, has a sense of judgement about people and can pick out the harmful person but accept others, and will fight to the death if need be, but only if need be. A dog that is the consumate generalist and spiritually connnected to its master in a way I have seen in few other dogs -- not strictly a fighting dog period.

Mod:
Stop trolling <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Nancy,
I've said it many times before - the vast majority of owners are absolutely kidding themselves when they think that their dog will protect them. Given the chance for escape, *most* dogs, including SchH dogs, will escape when they're truly threatened ( and that's when the dog is individually threatened - the number that will protect their owner is even lower )

I'm a threatening helper, and I've experimented with extreme agitation dozen's of times on different fields. If I menace a dog and do not use much prey motion, you'd be amazed at the number of dogs that will retreat, often all the way to their owner's car. I've opened the eyes of a lot of owner's, to be sure ( I only do this at the owner's request, when they want to see the true nature of their dog )

Nancy:
" a dog who would not pick fights, loves children, has a sense of judgment about people and can pick out the harmful person but accept others, and will fight to the death if need be, but only if need be"

Sorry, that dog does not exist, except in the mind of it's owner - and said owner is seriously kidding him or her self. What you are asking of a dog here is extreme, and requires an extreme type dog, that most people won't deal with.

This whole discussion is sort of amusing for me - it's a lot like people wanting a car that will do 160 miles and hour when needed, but still be great for driving their children around safely. And those same car owners also do not want to pay higher insurance or maintenance costs required to have a car that'll go that fast.

Howard wrote: "There needs to be more people that breed dogs ONLY for this purpose."


I don't know about that. I'd say there need to be more people who incorporate these genetics into their current breedings. . .and not just say they do.

 Quote:

Nancy:
" a dog who would not pick fights, loves children, has a sense of judgment about people and can pick out the harmful person but accept others, and will fight to the death if need be, but only if need be"

 Quote:

Sorry, that dog does not exist, except in the mind of it's owner - and said owner is seriously kidding him or her self. What you are asking of a dog here is extreme, and requires an extreme type dog, that most people won't deal with.

Nancy,
years ago I had a friend who had a dog such as you describe. One day when we were out together we were threatened by some guys who were high on drugs. The dog responded to this threat, as you would expect based on your post....HOWEVER, when the dog was punched by the man (as the dog proceeded to attack the fellow)the dog IMMEDIATELY ran under a car and my friend ended up beating up the man in anger that his dog had been hit!! My point: the dog had the right idea but was unprepared for the situation and when faced with an attack by a man, he went into avoidance and ran.


So, Will, that brings me to disagree with you that only an extreme dog would be able to stand and fight. I think that if a dog is TRAINED to be a PP dog, and has been in mock scenarios that mimic life like situations, then the dog would be prepared to understand how to react in such a situation as I described.
At least, this is what I thought the whole purpose of PP training was! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />