About two years ago a friend of mine wnated a Rott. So I made some calls to Germany. One of the guys was a big Rott guy back in the 80's. Guess what he told me, it is hard to get a good ne over there anymore, we have better working Rotts in the States as a whole. Called the next guy, and that deals dogs in general, and I was told for a good young one, be prepared to pay, as they are few and far between.

I agree that no test is not the best idea.......as it leaves holes for anyone to breed, but the flip side is in the States the German way just is not possiable if we want to produce bloodlines. Plain and simple. On top of that the SV way has big holes in it to. I would like a ZTP type deal here in the States.

How are other European countries like Belgium, Holland that produce great working dogs doing it, I do not think you need the SV requirments over there. Anyone know for sure?

 Quote:

Originally posted by Brad Stout:
Todd I believe the difference between a titled female and un-titled is that a titled female has gone thru some stress and pressure weather thru training or trialing. Not all titled females should be breed, but it gives an idea how a dog handles the pressure. Will the dog track, will the bite on long bite or run? A female with un-proven working ability does not show us how she handles stress or pressure. Spending time in a kennel, the only stress the dog sees is when is my next breeding and rearing of puppies etc. How can you show me the dog, when the dog is not at the show? This is just a general statement and not an attack on anyone on this board, just my beliefs.

Well, not Todd and not getting personal, but you are making big assumptions. According to what you typed above, I gather that you believe an untitled female is one that isn't worked? You would rather take a bitch with a title gained on home ground over one that was trained and trained and pushed in all types of circumstances (but doesn't have a sport title)? If you are "that" interested in something out of that bitch (the untitled one), you could request video, training contacts (to see what the decoys, TDs, etc etc) say about her, you could visit the bitch and work her yourself, all sorts of things. Just because she's untitled doesn't mean you throw common sense out the window, and just because one is titled doesn't mean they can work or produce it (there are no guarantees that the untitled one that does work well can produce it either though). Just some thoughts, no real point.

Todd I believe the difference between a titled female and un-titled is that a titled female has gone thru some stress and pressure weather thru training or trialing. You mention through training or trialing. So that would lead one to believe it can be accomplished in training. You should be able to see the stress and pressure a dog can handle in training, right? Not just a trial.

Not all titled females should be breed, but it gives an idea how a dog handles the pressure. Will the dog track, will the bite on long bite or run? Again, I don't think you need a trial for this.

A female with un-proven working ability does not show us how she handles stress or pressure. Who says it is unproven? I mentioned Fawn(Lery/Cala) she will not be titled. However, she is working. Is trained 3 times a week. Very different situations. We all mention we have seen titled dogs that were crap, why is so hard to then go the other way and say we have seen untitled dogs that were awesome?

Spending time in a kennel, the only stress the dog sees is when is my next breeding and rearing of puppies etc. If this is how they spend their lives...that is sad. I got dogs to play with them. I didn't get dogs to be a fixture in the back yard. I can only speak for myself...Danu has had 1 litter since she has been with me, Mara 2. I don't think they spend their time waiting for the next breeding(although, I have been waiting on Danu...lol).

How can you show me the dog, when the dog is not at the show? Easy, by going to the dog. By having the dog brought to me. I don't need a 'show' to tell me if the dog is good. Take the dog to a strange place, bring your own helper and 'show me the dog'.

Which BTW means absolutely nothing in how the dog reproduces. See that is also the part we are missing in this discussion. Is it possible for a dog to produce better than they are? Is it possible for a dog to produce worse than they are?

Todd I know and have met your dogs and you do have some nice ones, also I know Mike W. he also has some great dogs. I believe titles do matter to you or why buy a National champion winner Bastian pup? Also Mike R. titles must matter to you or why would you breed to the Police dog champion Brawnson? Why not breed to a dog down the road? Titles prove working ability, believe it or not they do.

Brad

 Quote:

Originally posted by Brad Stout:
Also Mike R. titles must matter to you or why would you breed to the Police dog champion Brawnson? Why not breed to a dog down the road? Titles prove working ability, believe it or not they do.

Hey Brad,
Here's my thoughts on it. We bred our untitled (yet worked, evaluated, stable) Kora to Boss v Zwart who happens to be SchH3 IPO3 FH. I like Boss a lot, have seen him work, have seen him train, have seen him in a social atmosphere, and his owner is DEAD honest about everything to do with the dog. Great dog. Would he be as great without the titles and just the training...yes. Would I breed to him if he wasn't titled and I didn't know his owner...to be honest, probably not.

As far as our other "joint venture" with breeding to Brawnson, well as I'm sure you know, I've got a Brawnson son and like what I've seen so far. If Brawnson weren't sport titled, wouldn't bother me in the least, he's a working PSD (and still working at 9yrs old) and I've seen what he can produce. The bitch going to him is also untitled, but is trained probably to a higher level than most sport dogs AND out of the 9 pups she has had (in 2 litters), she has produced 5 males that went on to work as PSDs (some of the others are still with her breeder in her program).

So here's my double standard <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I would forgive a female not being titled before I would a male. Now, if I knew the circumstances around the male, had seen him work on different occassions, had seen him socially, had seen him in training (and not one where the owner sets it up to work on easy stuff), then I *might* go ahead and breed to him. But, on another little tangent, I will forgive a title under special circumstances, I will NOT forgive health testing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Brad, I know we have met, and you have seen 3 of my 11 dogs. Thank you for the compliment as well. However, this is not a matter of my dogs vs. their dogs. It is a simple difference of breeding philosophies.

As far as my Bastin pup. I was more impressed with the 4-5 Askia and 3-5 Fero than I was being a Bastin pup. Also, just for the Record, my Bastin pup is out of an untitled dam. Now, she is a dual purpose K9 retired. However, still untitled. So, no titles don't really do it for me. But, I will give you this...the titles do make it easier to find the lines and dogs I want. I simply visit the winners web pages and use word of mouth to get where I want to go.

Keep rolling Brad, you are definitely winning the argument. Todd I don't understand why you quote statistics of BSP participants as the guage of a dog's production and then in the same mouthful say that titles don't mean anything? What gives? Sounds like you just want an argument. If you don't like to train or can't train because of some predicament you are in, no problem. Everyone has their limitations, but you are definitely in the minority when it comes to the opinion that titles don't mean anything. If you think I am picking on you personally because you have 2 untitled breeding bitches, you are wrong. To each their own. Since you don't believe the title means anything, how do you 'test' them for breed suitability? What I have found with breeding females, is that they must have HIGH prey drive and good nerves to be a good producer. I would like your opinion on what your idea of a good breeding candidate is in a bitch?

Winning an arguement? I didn't know this was a win lose proposition.

I quote the statistics because that is all we have. How many of Minks kids have you worked? How many of Fero's kids have you worked?

Out of Fero's 1181 kids...what else do we have to go on? 35 went to the BSP. I can't personally see any of his kids work.

Now, lets look at a local stud...how many of their kids can we see work. As many as we want. If we want to take the time. If I want to find out about Brawnson, go to the AKC get a progeny list and see what I can find. The point is the older dogs all we have is their statistics. Genetics is a wonderful thing.

Since you don't believe the title means anything, how do you 'test' them for breed suitability? What I have found with breeding females, is that they must have HIGH prey drive and good nerves to be a good producer. I would like your opinion on what your idea of a good breeding candidate is in a bitch?
The first problem we have here, is you and I might disagree on what is breed suitable. As well as what is a good producer. Second, Mara has absolutely zero prey drive. Extreme food drive. Defense and fight through the roof. But, zero prey drive. Danu, has average prey. High food and defense as well. Both alpha bitches. Could they be titled. Yeah, I believe so. Mara would be the bigger challenge with her dog agressiveness. Could it be overcome. Yeah. Do I want to, or feel I need to put her through that? No.

Originally posted by Todd E. Gaster:
Winning an arguement? I didn't know this was a win lose proposition.

I quote the statistics because that is all we have. How many of Minks kids have you worked? How many of Fero's kids have you worked?

Out of Fero's 1181 kids...what else do we have to go on? 35 went to the BSP. I can't personally see any of his kids work.

Now, lets look at a local stud...how many of their kids can we see work. As many as we want. If we want to take the time. If I want to find out about Brawnson, go to the AKC get a progeny list and see what I can find. The point is the older dogs all we have is their statistics. Genetics is a wonderful thing.

Since you don't believe the title means anything, how do you 'test' them for breed suitability? What I have found with breeding females, is that they must have HIGH prey drive and good nerves to be a good producer. I would like your opinion on what your idea of a good breeding candidate is in a bitch?
The first problem we have here, is you and I might disagree on what is breed suitable. As well as what is a good producer. Second, Mara has absolutely zero prey drive. Extreme food drive. Defense and fight through the roof. But, zero prey drive. Danu, has average prey. High food and defense as well. Both alpha bitches. Could they be titled. Yeah, I believe so. Mara would be the bigger challenge with her dog agressiveness. Could it be overcome. Yeah. Do I want to, or feel I need to put her through that? No. p.s.

Let me clarify, it is not titles don't mean anything...it is there is a whole lot more to look at than just a title. If a dog has a title, great I still want to see the dog work. If it doesn't have a title, great I still want to see the dog work. The dam having a title, IMHO just makes it easier to 'market' the pups. I have had many people turn down pups out of Danu, and Mara because they were not titled. No biggie.

Todd, I'd give my left one to have an "untitled" pup out of Danu or Mara. Course then I wouldn't have the balls to handle them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />