Doyle,
Now I'm distrubed. Until your last post you sounded very positive about your pup.

This is what bothers me!

Crabtree,

Would you please check your PM.

Thanks

Doyle

Doyle,
Now I'm distrubed. Until your last post you sounded very positive about your pup.

This is what bothers me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Doyle wrote:Thanks for more information. I won't take up more Board space with beginner questions.

If not for beginners their wouldn't be any ED Frawley's, Bernerd Flinks, Michael River Taylors,
Koo's Hasserling's, and so many more that have all been beginners. (oh! I forgot to put my name with the others, just joking ) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Doyle this Board is for Beginners, Novices, Amaturs, and yes the PRO's. Everyone that post here have either been one or the other, or hope to be. Some members are Sport orienated and some work with K-9's for a living. All have helped each other here at LEERBURG FORUM.

DOYLE; Keep the questions coming, somebody else most likely has the same QUESTION!!

Again, Good luck with your pup, keep the questions coming. You save me from asking the same thing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Doyle; check your private messages. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

doyle, this board is here so you can ask beginner questions.
it sounds like you've got a nice pup.
enjoy him, and do as much as you can with him.
i've had a lot of disappointments with my dogs, but they've all taught me something.
and while he is still too young to really be able to say what he will turn into, this is the age where you can steer him in the direction you want. and by asking questions and researching now, when he's old enough, you'll have the knowlege you need.
keep the questions coming...........

Hello All:
Doyle, congrats on your puppy. I have been to a couple of Tom Rose's seminars and he coached a friend of mine who had a doberman a few years back. They did a great job. Tom knows what he is doing, but like anything, there are different schools of thought on how and when and why to train and at what age and level. If your goal is sport work and your dog has the capabilities to do that, then do it. We have to remember that SCH was intended as a test for breed suitablity. There are so many other factors, is someone wanted to just get the dog titled to breed their dog (show people) or are they wanting to get their dog titled because they want to be able to compete in national level competetion (working people), etc? Even if you got good scores with your dog, why would you want to breed it? Like someone else said, there are enough pets out there already. If your goal is to breed, then the only reason you should be breeding is for the betterment of the breed. Where better to look than right here with Ed's breeding program? Studying the lines of dogs are very specific, just look on some of Ed's articles and learn about the differences about "fight drive, sharp dogs, etc." Also look at what some dogs have produced, look at the pro's and cons of Fero's offspring - that is one of the classic arguments at this time. Look at what other working dogs have produced, Mink, Fado, Grief, etc. Most of the time, you don't know how much of an impact a dog has on a breeding program until the dog is up there in age or already dead. I would say to have fun with your puppy, ask a lot of question and train smart. Learn all you can about the sport and learn how to be a good owner and a good handler and a good trainer - but leave the breeding aspect to the breeders.
Hope this helps,
Brandon

Doyle,

CHeck your P.M.

Doyle,
Regarding your question about needing fight drive for high scores in protection. I guess the best way to answer you is, you have to have a pretty good understanding of what you want in a dog. I think it also depends on what level of competition you hope to strive for. Just look at the German highline dogs with schH titles, and that will tell you that many dogs from those lines can get good scores in protection working strictly in prey. But as someone else mentioned, those dogs are held to a lower standard. Look at the major schutzhund competitions and do you see any highline dogs? It is not unheard of for the helpers at USA Sieger shows to be asked to go easy on the dogs with their stick hits, etc. It all depends on what you like in a dog. My bias is that the highline dogs are selected primarily for appearance and movement, and consequently, don't have the genetics for true working character.

The only point that I think can be made that might clear up some confusion of your's Doyle, is that there are different levels of competition and competitors in Schutzhund. A lot of weak dogs can get titles in club level trials (not as tough as say the BSP <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ) and there are plenty of tricks to doing that and passing a SchH III.

Thus my reasoning that Schutzhund titles shouldn't be the only judge of breed worth IMO.

There are great dogs that get SchH III titles and there are not so great dogs that get SchH III titles. Most of the show line dogs are not so great.

If you look at the USA Nationals, or the BSP, what type of dogs do you see competing at the top levels? Mostly working line dogs.

Just because a dog can do Schutzhund doesn't mean that he can do top level sport or other more serious work. And I would be of the opinion that if a dog doesn't have what it takes to do the serious work, it is not breed worthy.

. . . . .but I like working dogs and could care less about conformation as long as the dog has a basic healthy structure that give it the ability to work and work and work.

The only other grip that I have about the SV conformation lines is that I don't think they are structurally the best representation of the German Shepherd breed/standard. I don't think that the banana butt is as structurally sound as the more moderate conformation that you see in most of the working lines. To support my argument, look at what is probably the shepherd dog with the most speed, stamina, and agility. . .the Malinois. They don't have a roached butt, I don't think the GSD should either and in the past they didn't. That is a fairly new development.

Then you have all of the problems that you get when you are breeding for conformation AND working ability. Generally with the SV conformation lines it is the conformation side of it that wins out in the choices of breeding. It only seems to take a few generations to sap the confidence and aggression levels in the breed.

VanCamp, that was a really good post. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I think Doyle should enjoy his new pup, learn with it and see how his pup developes.JMHO for what it's worth. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />