i am just amazed at how helpfull you guys are.. i love this forum it is exactly what i need. just so you know more about wat my goals are, i will tell you this: i dont want to do this type of work in order to have a dog that will protect me and come when i call him. i want to do this work because i love dogs and i spend all my free time with them, and in the future i want to have a good, meaningfull activity/hobby that i can do whenever i want with my dog. im having trouble find the correct wording for that but im just trying to say that advanced dog training is THE hobby i want to participate in; im not in it for a one time shot to make my dog kick ass. i want to start a hobby that i can participate in the rest of my life, or as long as i want, and i know for a fact this is it. lol i tend to rant im sorry but knowing wat i just said, (assuming u understood wat i was saying) is a schutzhund club a good place to start? i think i gatherd thats wat u were all tyring to tell me but i can be pretty thick sometimes so im trying to make sure. also i know i already asked this but.. is there any way i can test my dog to see how good of a canditate he is for work in schutzhund/pp ? hes 4month old so if not now when?

hoho forgot to ask; if any of you have aim id love to know what ur sn is bcause u all seem so helpfull and i use aim a lot. mine is blake829.

You're reading it right - we're all pretty much agreed that starting in schutzhund will suit your needs to start. At your pup's age, you'd like to be seeing an outgoing, self-confident attitude towards new places, people, and experiences; a healthy interest in playing with you; an eagerness to chase and bite anything that you animate like a rag, ball on a rope, jute toy, etc. If he demonstrates those attributes at this age, that's as much as you can hope for. Time will tell on the rest of it. Just be sure you are taking him lots of places, showing him lots of new things, and meeting lots of people including kids.

Blake,
I agree with Richard that it is more the function of the dog than the training.
If you do have a dog that might "save your ass" he is more likely to get his head screwed up by a PP trainer, because most PP is so disorganized at this point,they attract as Lee says,unsavory charcters and there are very few qualified trainers with references. SchH trainers are easier to check out.
Also, think about what you want from your dog, how far you want him to go in protecting you.Consider your lifestyle, whether you plan on having him with you at friends houses playing frisbee or hiking,or bike riding, all off leash activities.
I had to leave my dog home a lot until I retrained him and how could he protect me then?
Keep in mind, that if someone still approaches you or your house with your barking pitbull they probably have a gun and will make short work of your dog.
Realistically (sp)a dog is going to discourage intruders and maybe buy you some time to save your own ass <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> .

i realize wat u say is true, and like i said, im more in it for the fun of spending time with my dog than for a home security. but i do want to take him with me wherever i go and know i can count on him to listen to me and if necessary protect me. as far as schH trainers how do i 'check them out'? i only really have one choice for local SchH trainers so id be interested to see how good they are. what things besides tug of war and play of the sort should i be doing to prepare my dog for the future? right now he is extremely outgoing and doesnt hesitate to chase things, meet new people/dogs (most of the time by full frontal assult) and he will play with me but only if i want to wrestle in which case he doesnt hesitate to chew on my arms or anything else in reach of his mouth. also should i worry about him getting to much exercise? (bcuz of hip dysplacia? ..did i spell that right?) bcuz right now i take hime over to the state park in minneapolis to hike with me in the off-leash section. he plays real hard with the ohter dogs their and the excersize is varied from playing in one spot to jogging to walking to climbing etc. will this be a problem for him? he doesnt show anything but people say it can be bad during bone developement. ur thoughts?

ne1??????????????

The idea that PP dogs have poor obedience becasue of PP training is silly. THe dogs that have poor obedience have poor obedience because it was never trained properly. Many of us old farts didn't ever start our dogs in protection until they were 2 y/o and had their obedience completely done. An example of what I consider adequate obedience is that the dog can maintain a 20-30 minute out of sight down with distractions. Most of my dogs could do a group obedience class for an hour off lead.

Now often the obedience looks a little different becasue it isn't attention heeling that people in other areas of training are used to seeing. But it isn't bad obedience. A PP dog requires EXELLENT obedience. If you look at all of the control excercises involved with doing PP, or any bite training, it starts with proper obedience. The most critical is the recall. With the out/recall you are asking the dog to release the hard won object of a fight and return to you. Tough to convince the dog that this is a good idea. If you don't you have to go get the dog and you loose the advantage of having the dog doing work away from you and it requires you to put yourself in danger from both the bad guy and the dog. Not smart.

Although there are bad people involved with PP there are also bad trainers in every area of dog training, including SchH and obedience. Getting any form of dog training is definitly buyer beware. There are some things that you can do to identify a good trainer.

First, go and watch them train dogs. If a trainer isnt willing to let you watch them work client dogs I would be concerned. Second, talk to the clients away from the trainer. Find out how they feel about the training they are doing. Are they happy with the dog's progress? Third, watch the dogs closely. Is what you are seeing what you want? Your dog will be were the dogs you are seeing soon enough. Watch to see if the dogs are all trained the same way or are there differences based on the dogs. Is the training each dog recieves seem effective? Talk with the trainer. Identify their philosophy and discuss training methods. Do you agree with the methods described? Fist and foremost trust your gut, if it feels wrong, even if you can't really say why, go somewhere else.

Blake,
Since you don't have $ read Ed's training articles on this site, do searches on old posts,
and check out the DVG and USA SchH websites.
Look for club members and TDs from your area that have competed in the regionals and nationals. Observe some local clubs and trials, talk to the different contact people for those clubs. Scrape some $ together and get Bernard Flinks video.
Good Luck.

thanks very much.

Blake, I sent you a pm (well, actually two)

Marina S.