I just found this site a few weeks ago. I used to be involved with Police dogs about 18+ years ago. My training buddy was on the "cutting edge" by getting Sch dogs out of Europe and converting them into street dogs. The thing is that the methods we used back then to convert/train dogs were substantially different than what I see today. It has been quite a while since I have had a dog that would even be considered for the dog sports. As I have done hundreds of hours of research, I have found I really don’t know as much about dogs as I thought. Having bought a dog that comes from Belgium lines and KNVP and Ring Sport, I want to get into one of the dog sports. Schutzhund is by far the most popular, but that’s not saying much! It is still hard to find a club that is close with members that know what they are doing. Then I read about how dysfunctional SCHUSA is and that just adds to the stress of finding the "right" club.

It takes sacrifice by the top trainers and decoys to HELP the new people get started. I currently am involved in Gun Sports (IPSC, IDPA, USPSA, 3 Gun) and it is pretty common for a Grand Master to hold a training class for Juniors at little to no charge. If it was not for a couple of GM's, I would have quit a long time ago, so would my 3 son's! Where can a new guy go to get started on the right track?, without having to spend hundreds of dollars for DVD's and video's?

I am kind of depressed and disillusioned at the moment about training my 14 week old to some day be able to help me enjoy a weekend at the "Dog Club" at a match. Is it so messed up that it's not even worth trying?

Tony

:rolleyes:

Tony,
What can you tell us about the training methods you used to convert sport dogs to street dogs?

The dog's that we got had to be socialized. They were not snarling dogs waiting to chomp on on someone. It was just that the dogs that we wound up with were what I guesse would be considered very hard dogs. The dogs were way more intense than dogs that were born, raised and trained in the states. It probably goes to the dog sports being so common over there as well as people having dogs that had a main purpose, winning and advancing in whatever sport they were in. I had met a couple of exporters that told us 90% of all human contact that his dogs had were associated with intense training for the sport.

The other thing was the way in which the dog "worked". Depending on the situation, when our dogs were "sent" into an area that had a suspected violent felon, we wanted the dog to go in and take the suspect down immediately. After all of the verbal warnings and CYA proceedures were done, we did not want to walk into a room to have a suspect frozen like a statue, but pointing a gun at us.

After all of my recent research, I now know that we messed up a lot of dogs. We could have gotten them to do what we wanted without taping into the drives that make dogs scary or dangerous.

The one thing that over time we worked to change was the "it's time to go" mentality of the dogs. Going to a match and having the dog spend x # of minutes doing a specific part of the match was one thing, having him learn that when he was put into a cruiser did not mean that it was "showtime" for 10 hours!

Thanks Tony. Your comment that an exporter told you that 90% of all the human contact his dogs had was associated with intense sport training, is interesting. I know some folks kennel their dogs and keep them bored or otherwise really deprive their dogs so as to increase drive. I wonder how much of a factor this approach is in training top level sport dogs. I personally would never restrict my dog's environment so much just to increase the dog's desire to train because it is bored to death. The dog misses out on so much more development by being kenneled and crated all the time.

The dog misses out on so much more development by being kenneled and crated all the time. Ah, yes..but you view the dog as a sentinent entity.

There are competitive sport folk who view the dog as merely equipment used to get to a winners spot on the podium. If the equipment malfunctions, or breaks, it is simply replaced.

And in between competitions, the equipment gets thrown in the locker, like a football, until the next time it's needed.

Ann,
I was trying to get a sense of what percentage of the top sport dogs are managed this way. If it is a significant number of dogs, I think that practice speaks to the problem that points and winning have become.

Hi Chip -
I know that many "top sport dogs" are kennel-dogs - however most "not-top" sport dogs are house dogs and family companions. The reason? I think, that many top competitors are importing adult pre-trained dogs and taking their leash for competition - these dogs had already been raised as kennel dogs; they might lose some "edge" if they would become house-dogs or pets; and some people might own small dogs, cats or children that the "kennel-raised" dog might be under-socialized with, due to his being raised in a kennel situation. I have imported a few dogs, some of whom have made excellent house/companion dogs, others who are simply not.
But, from where I'm standing - my own "top" sport dogs, dogs I have bred/raised/titled myself who I raised from puppy to SchH3 and have taken to National (and now World) level - are not just kennel dogs. Eagle is laying right here by my computer desk, he sleeps in my bedroom with me and is an almost-constant companion dog as well as being a very strong, powerful, intense working dog when it is time for that. My retired SchH3 dogs are house/companion dogs 100% of the time, and the others come in the house on a regular basis, kenneled some of the time too. Obviously to me, there can be a nice balance depending on how the dog is raised and his temperament.

Molly nailed that one!
If you do the research, the majority of dogs that are in the top 15 of the SchH USA Nationals most years are dogs that recieved their SchH III overseas, and were then imported to the U.S.

I'd love to see the statistics for the top three placing dogs over the past ten years, as far as if the current handler at the time of the Nationals put on the SchH III title. I believe that would be a short list.

Some top level handlers make their entire living from "campaining" a dog that is actually owned by a well-to-do owner - those handlers specialize in squeezing the last points out of a dog, but to be honest, they're supplied with extremely expensive, high end dogs ( that *never* leave a kennel except to train ).
We even see this concept in DVG, with kennel owners importing high end dogs and the top level handlers showing said dog and often winning the Nationals.
Money talks. Actually, money shouts - loudly.

To win a SchH USA is a dream of many competitors, but you're pretty much competing against pros with significant financial backing. And to me, winning the HOT category would give a handler/ breeder far more bragging rights. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think to say that things have not and are not changing is indicative of not really knowing the history of SchH here in the states. Compared to Europe, SchH is very new. We have been doing it about 1/4 of the time that the Europeans have and therefore we had to go through the learning process.

Having said that, I will say it certainly IS changing as far as the respect level for those that train their own dogs. I read more and more about HOT dogs every day. It is apparent to me, there is a big change in the attitude of many people involved in SchH. Years ago it was never mentioned or even acknowledged if you trained your own dog. In the early 80's I competed in the WUSV with a dog I trained from a pup. A friend of mine competed three times with my dog's half brother, (also trained from a pup), placing 20th in 1980. I do not recall anyone ever mentioning the fact that one of the dogs was bred, raised and trained and the other raised and trained to this level by the owners. It seems, the first time it was mentioned, was when Glenn Bennett placed second with a dog he trained from a pup during the 1990's.

The HOT tournament is and has changed lots of attitudes about what competing in SchH really is. I expect that it will continue to change and as the HOT dogs start to "go places" we will see more interest from those who want to show what THEY can train a dog to do. I also think the interest in trainers that can train dogs from start to finish will increase as the desire to compete in the HOT continues to build. Working with a titled dog is an entirely "different animal" than doing it from scratch. When you have a dog that someone has spent months on building drive and teaching behavior,( not to mention the title), you have a huge head start. Doing it yourself requires time, knowledge and luck. It takes a much greater amount of time to get a pup from eight weeks to SchH 3 and while I can understand the desire to skip most of the process, I will always give the HOT handler much more credit than those that start five feet before the finish line. There is also no replacement for the knowledge you gain about your dog when you run the entire race.

As for the quality of dogs, I think there were some great dogs 15 years ago. However, I think there are still some great ones nowadays. I still see and work with dogs that show lots of trainability, drive, aggression and talent. They are still out there but just like 15 years ago, you have to know where to find them.

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...to me, winning the HOT category would give a handler/ breeder far more bragging rights.

Ditto that!

I am underwhelmed by handlers who take an already trained dog to the podium. (and yeah, I've heard all about how talented one has to be just to "handle" a high-end dog.)

It also takes talent to race a high octane formula car, but if the driver actually built or designed that car... Now that is a REAL win!

With a dog, imho, if you didn't do the training you're just a driver.