**Drew writes: Granted, I still give the dogs the occasional treat for proper behavior.**

As you should because if you stopped doing that altogether, your dog would stop responding as you like.

Matthew writes: "There have been a few comparisons between children and dogs. This is plain silly."

How so? Both humans and other organisms operate in almost the exact same manner with regard to punishment and reinforcement....and we show the same response pattern changes based on differing schedules of reinforcement. Kids, adults, teenagers, parrots, dogs and chimps work in very much the same way... humans are different in that they have verbal behavior, form faster discriminations and the kinds of things that a species find 'reinforcing' are often different from one species to the next (we don't tend to get so excited about thrown balls). The comparison isn't silly at all especially with regard to what we are discussing here.

Lee has been right on the money in this thread (and her other threads in this forum)....and this does not imply that she agrees with my last paragraph!

Okay so tonight was the first time I have worked with him in a week. Worked on the down, sit and stay...and of course shake hands...dumb thing to teach a dog now he just waives his paw in the air when he wants a treat. Anyways...yes he knows down much better this week then he did a couple weeks ago. I am still working on stay length. He is doing great, so excited and focused on me rather than puppy or the squirrels. I do treat him when their is more distraction for the commands he already knows well. I even was able to go into a room and come back out a few seconds later with him still in the stay. Right now I am going back and forth from the Sit/Stay to the Down/Stay. Doing well with a sterile environment, like a hallway. Tomorrow I will take him to a park and try more distance with him. So far I can get about 20 feet before he jumps up.

I am wondering if you have the dog do a down/stay and you walk behind him, is he allowed to turn and face you still but still stay?

I also have the leerburg video so I will watch it tonight. I feel giving him a correction with the choke chain or prong collar is reserved for times when he knows what I am asking and does not obey purposely.

Thanks for all your replies. Lots of differing opinions here.

Julia

You might be able to use a very soft-core type of 'correction' at this stage if you feel it will speed things along. You can make a sound or say something that basically "ends the fun" for a period of time. So when the dog does something wrong, you can say "no no" (or whatever) and walk away with your treats/toys for a time. You can condition this in all sorts of occasions, not just formal training. It won't be a useful "correction" unless it is conditioned as such. So if that sound always precededs an "end to the good stuff", your dog will get it. Try to make sure that you have full control of "the good stuff" when you make that sound because you have to be able to immediately end his access to it upon your mark. You can make a dramatic exit to make the point more salient.
Once conditioned, you can say "no no" at the very moment the dog breaks his stay...giving the dog a clear signal that the response will not result in 'good stuff'.
This is sort of a mini-correction, but can be very effective if the dog is truly "in" to what you have for him.
technically: you are using respondent conditioning which means that you are taking a previously neutral stimulus (NS)..."no no"... and setting it up as a conditioned aversive stimulus (CaS) by removing a positive reinforcer (the treats) upon presentation of that NS (no no). It's the reason we humans don't like the word "no" either!

Well so far I have been using a sharp uh-uh when he does the task incorrectly, and not treat him.

Exactly. That is why you don't train a dog with treats. You can train him more effectively and with better long term results without treats. Training with treats is the lazy way to teach a dog. If training with treats is so great, why do you phase them out of your training regemine AS SOON AS POSSIBLE??? GSD's can learn the basics without them, it just take's more effort on your part.
It is also important to note how training with treats screws up a dogs perception of food and feeding times and schedules. Food is for when the dog is hungry and needs nurishment, not for a bribe.

Ok Mat,

You have my curiosity up. So what you are saying is that it is better to make training more difficult? Perhaps That makes you a better traininer or the dog more responsive?

Frankly when training I have never given the dog enough that there was any question that it wasn't a meal. They always ate their food fine, and since I used different treats I doubt they were confused at all. But when we went out side they looked to me for obedience command so they could perform as quickly as possible.

Just for fum, how do you train tracking? Do you "bribe the dog" with food to get them the idea of what you want? If not how do you do it? If you do, dosen't that create a problem with feeding time? I mean a bribe is a bribe....

No you don't NEED to use treats, and NO it doesn't create any bad habits. Unless you call happy obedience a bad habit.


I'm not going to close this thread because I'd like to hear answers to Richard's questions.


I bet Matthew didn't answer because he doesn't have the first idea how to train a dog to foot step track.

Well Mat,

You seem to hold strong opinions, but no knolwedge. I have trained both ways for over 20 years for multiple purposes. I speak English fairly well, though I am lousy at spelling and typing. I even read!!!

"Training with treats is the lazy way to teach a dog."

Looks like a fairly simple statement to me. I can even define each word for you if you would like. The word lazy (Disinclined to exertion; indolent. Slow, Sluggish, Languid) implies that it is too simple and you should put in more effort. Quite simply: WHY? The method you use to establish the foundation of training has no bearing on the end point or the stability of training. If you you would like to go in to the specifics of the stability of training in using reward vs. punishment I certainly can, but I doubt you would understand it. The very short version is that reward is the most powerful method of maintaining a behavior, the least effective is punishment. The most powerful method of TEACHING a behavior is Reward, the least effective is punishment. So make a choice. Easy or hard. That from your own statement "GSD's can learn the basics without them, it just take's more effort on your part ." (emphisis added) So by your own, very simple statements, the goal is to not do it the easy way but do it the way the requires more effort. I read that "the hard" way. So is it required to train with treats, NO. Is it faster (by your own statement), YES. Is that BAD, I don't think so. But bad is a somewhat subjective.

Creates bad habits, No. In fact it can be used to eliminate bad habits. The biggest is lack of attention. If the dog must pay attention to get the reward, it is much more likely to do that. The other choice is to create fear. Which does work, but why? If the corrections are not strong enough to create fear, the dog may just use them to provide information about what you are doing so it doesn't HAVE to pay attention. Just like a dog that likes to maintain physical contact so it doesn't have to pay attention. So there are problems in any method of training. In fact the biggest problem most trainers have is a closed mind. The complete and total unwillingness to try a new method. I did it for years, I have learned better. The use of treats to train does not preclude the use of punishment in addition. It is just an added tool. Weaning the dog off treats is not a rush. In fact using them on an intermittant schedule only strengthens the behavior, not weaken it. Unlike punishment, which if you don't punish for each instance weakens the effect of the punishment.

Believe it or not the use of a food reward has been used for millions of years to strengthen behaviors. The sucessful behaviors are rewarded on an intemittent schedule and re-enforces the behaviors that work the best. It is called hunting.

Richard, well written and to the point. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Hopefully everyone that trains will take your advice!!

Punishment should always be the last option in training.

If you understand what your dog requires to LEARN the training goes so much smoother. Then how many so called trainers really care what it takes for their dogs to understand the learning process.

Again Great post!!!