i really like the idea of some form of testing that would "be difficult to train for," something that would test dogs' problem solving abilities, their natural character rather than a trained response.......

Something harder to train for is just testing the patients of the trainer/knowledge or whatever you call it.
Do it the old way and teach the dog to work using it's mind with little commands, then put it on the field and test it's knowledge/ability/instincts.

A good do is a good dog no matter how you "shake a stick at it".
Paying money would not necessarily keep it right, because they could fail just to get more money also.
People learn the hard way. Bad breeding gets bad results.
Even the american conformation ring is just one person's opinion. There may be a standard, but f--- that if you pay the right people, or your name is good enough. It all depends on who you blow. (or who you know:O).

It is nice to see that people actually see the problem and want to fix it, but a win win fix is going to happen when I get crowned Queen of England.

My 2 cents.

Lou's stake out test, with muzzle work, is as good as any. That combo goes beyond prey. You can't train nerve or fight in a dog.
Lynn = Queen of England. Heaven help the UK! Instead of that cute little waive the queen has, Lynn would be flipping the bird. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Well, the answer then would be to refuse to buy any puppies unless the stud has at least passed in Lou's Police Stake Out Test and the muzzle fight test. And the mother has a nice working pedigree.

I just bought 3 puppies sired by studs who have passed these tests. Two are progeny of Kevin Sheldahl's stud "CJ" and the other is from Ed's Xando.

I would never hurt a bird Bob <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

While my stake out test (it's not really mine I stole it from several trainers and put a few of my own twists on it) is mainly used to test a prospect to see if he has the level and balance of drive that I prefer in a police dog, it could easily be used to test a dog for SchH, Ring or any other sport.

But you'll have to interpret and extrapolate differently for the sports than for a police dog. For police work I don't care for a high level of prey drive, it's hard to control. I like just enough that I can use a ball to destress a dog or to build his bite. I prefer a dog that's pronounced in fight drive.

But for sport work a dog that's pronounced in fight drive and low in prey drive won't give the impressive "appearance" that a dog that's high in prey drive will give.

For example, unless he's conditioned to do so, he won't stand on the sleeve and bark in the decoy's face. A fight drive dog isn't about appearance, he's about real fighting and barking in the decoy's face is a show, not something that a real fighter would do.

that was excellent, lou. now, if we could just get everybody to agree that its "okay" to want something different in a dog: pp dog, herding, sports, service, show and companion.

Patricia, what exactly does that comment have to do with this topic? I'm curious.

I was thinking the same thing about her comment, VanCamp.
I guess we need to bring up SchH everytime someone posts about agility, or companion pets, to stay even with the thread hijackers....... :rolleyes:

I'd like to know what she is getting at.

what i meant was ...... lou's desciption of the tie out test put in a nutshell the difference in what one would look for in police work as opposed to a sport dog. there was no slam intended here and certainly no hi-jacking. i've talked about the versitility of the gsd before and seeing it as a good thing. within the breed is the potential for many different types of work. the only unfortunate thing i see is that people tend to be more than a little narrow minded in what their idea of the dog should be. no, i did not mean anyone in particular. maybe i need to start using more emoticons so my feeling is more apparent.