brother,,, i recon you just stepped in it.everyone has ,and is welcome to their own beliefs,but not everyone is interested in the other fellas beliefs.jmuo. just jt.

I don't like stepping in it, but if you want to educate people you have to be willing to. That said, I may not like other people's breeding theories or decisions, but I will not FORCE my breeding practices on anyone. All I expect in return is the same courtesy.

The thing people have to remember is that if your willing to force people into compliance with what you think is right, then by definition you have to be willing to accept stronger people forcing you into what ever position they think is right. In the end though, people honestly and openly discussing positions/beliefs is a good thing and if done properly only serves to educate all sides of any particular issue.

Since this is a working dog site, I'm going to add an illustration.

I've watched this conversation go back and forth, and I'd like to use the German SV vs. the American AKC to make a point.
The German SV mandates fairly strict standards for breeding, the American AKC does not.

German SV GSD's, at their worse, have at least passed a SchH test to be breed.
The vast majority of serious competition, police patrol, and working dogs come out of this ( or a similar European ) effort.

The American AKC places zero requirements for breeding. American GSD's are uniformly crap, with only a small number of dedicated SchH type folks breeding anything that can even remotely work ( and these dogs are usually only one or two generations from their imported ancestor's, plus they tend to be shown and titled by the dedicated breeder/ handler's )

Lack of standards for breeding will immediately lead to a rapid and profound decrease in a dog's working ability. Anybody that doesn't believe that is fooling themselves badly.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Will Rambeau:
Lack of standards for breeding will immediately lead to a rapid and profound decrease in a dog's working ability. Anybody that doesn't believe that is fooling themselves badly.

I am a little more hard core than that, in the case of GSD's, Unless you are a German with a flock of sheep, who counts on that flock as his sole source of living, and whose choice of dog breeding directly effects his lively hood, then you are probably "damaging" the breed if you try to breed. Fortunately, with the GSD there at least is a market that tries to recover some of the things that made the GSD great. A lot of other working breeds don't have it near so lucky.

Will Rambeau, Thankyou so very much for your statement that"AKC places ZERO requirements for breeding".In addition..what you said about the SV...at least requiring a schHutzen 1 or above. At the very least..it is a standard set.in a simple working measure.Thats why I had brought up "Westminister"..and the FALSE advertizing of a breeds workability...initially. Predominantly with AKC the shepherds that can't make the grade in showing..go to obedience..unless the owner just sees the genetic qualities..of the dog...or just wants to just enjoy the fun of it.In ref to what Thomas said..about herding.That is the breeds foundation.A watchful eye..a good mind..a protective being in the split of a second..with calmness within..to either release upon command..or just know it. No matter who breeds or not ..the most important thing is to protect all of the genetic qualities ..of the german shepherd.The foundation is from europe...as you know.It goes the same with horses Will.They are far ahead of us in many ways. Candace

Interesting subject!
My solution>is to drop a smart bomb that effects only american bred gsd & castrates all of them & all akc supporters & employees. no more american gsd>>i have never seen one that i liked. could be out there, but i have never seen one>>well there is the one that looked like a bunny hopping around at the dog park because it could not walk on its hind legs> the other dogs would run by it & the wind they created would make him fall>>that was just sad!But true, im not making this up. what we need is an american SV, plain & simple. oh yes the reason i was responding, i usually lurk (daily) cause i know there are a lot of experienced people here regarding dogs training & breeding. I have been thinking about breeding myself, but i know i have a big learning curv & will hold off.
My question is directed mosly to the breeders. if you were starting fresh, creating a kennel from scratch for breeding but knowing what you know now with all your experience what would be the top 10 priorities be for you in creating a susessfull kennel & producing the ultimate dogs?
please share your trade secrets
As fare as the poster initally starting this thread>>i think she was like me when i first got involved in the bred>>she just does not know what a well bred gsd is. i would assume her impression & a goal for breading would be one of those hippity hoppity rabbit american gsds i mentioned erlier>>>sad very sad. please saturate your mind with the "german" german shepherd dog for a year or so before you start a kennel. maby the akc is not all that bad after all, since there regulations are what is keeping her fome breeding & registering a kennel name! then again mabey not.p.s. this whole post sounds so unpatriotic but usa all the way except for the gsd.
NB

Candace, be very careful what you wish for because you might just get it. One thing I have noticed is that Show breeders and Working breeders are a lot a like. They both want to force people to breed dogs to their own liking and also really really dont like people who breed dogs in a manner different than their own. I think what 'working' breeders have to remember is that there are a lot more show breeders out there and they can be a LOT more fanatical.

When you want the AKC to put requirements on breeding you are making a big change, you are in essence creating a government with all the political fallout that comes with that. Worse yet, as a member of the minority, asking to create a body that will promote your view is asking for BIG problems, especially when the majority is very fanatical.

So say your wish comes through, and the AKC does mandate breeding rules that fit what you desire. I think you will discover the same thing that Dr Frankenstein did, "I've created a monster".

The AKC really should only serve one breeding purpose and that is to track parentage and nothing more. Trying to force ones ideas down others throats just results in have someone else’s ideas forced down yours.

The other major problem with making people breed to ones likes and dislikes, is called the law of unintended consequences. What people think they are breeding for and what they are really breeding for are often two different things. Probably the easiest way people damage a breed is when they stop breeding for function and instead breed for form ( In the mistaken belief that it will save function). I better stop now before I jump too high on the soap box, but now I have a real urge to post "Thomas' Treatise on Breed Destruction" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If the AKC ever went too far in regulating breeding, there is always the option to say F- them and quit registering your dogs. Pretty simple.

Breeding for form is exactly what I want to avoid...It is too very simple to destroy breeds that way.The fanatics..are all on "The Train"..to get to Westminister..and show to gain to a simple CH. next to the name of their dog..and pursue marketing the offspring..to produce more "Plastic" dogs that have lost all of any existant genetic function qualities that they may have pocessed...due to the european/german genetic influence within on the outside 5 generations back. On the other hand..working wise. I do not want to get on "The Train" of becoming fanatical..either.Idiots are produced in both arenas......ESPECIALLY with AKC as a result of their blindness.The other are the people(NOT ALL) who want to compete..and force a dog to accomplish something given whatever tactics they use in their training..to get a title...to market the dog.I am not against Titles by any means.I see so many people advertizing pups for sale..Both parents titled..schHutzen 1 or 2.That is pretty basic.But have these breeders emphasized on ALL the genetic qualities in their breeding program?..or just on one drive? As Lauren had said about all the german line dogs/pups..ending up in shelters. Well the reason being is because people join a train..and have no idea what they are breeding...and don't know how to handle the result.A big standard nowadays is that you can "Sell" german for big bucks..and then people buy..and they have no idea or knowledge..end result...High drive aggressive dogs...without a balance mentally...therefore becoming "Plastic". I agree that..if AKC would change..a greater monster would be produced. I feel that USA has a good standard set..in policing the quality of dogs that are able to be bred.But I think that they need to not only base it on titles and proven european lines..They need to reach out and test the genetic qualities of the dog...Candace

Lauren,AKC has already regulated dogs and ruined breeds in the process.Thats why I brought up Westminister... Yes you can say F..you and not register..Then someone else creates another registry for that person to join..like CKC.etc etc. Then people buy from that registry..and again breeds are ruined.When I had applied for my kennel name..I already knew what was going to happen.Gee the only thing I have to do is have so many litters in so many years..or have a renouned kennel that is based on producing plastic dogs who is in the pocket..of judges sent..and their friends..etc etc.Well Lauren..that is not me. I don't get into politics..nor should any judging be based upon it. My goal is to protect the true german shepherd..and breed accordingly in the future based upon not a registry.....and standards set politically. Candace