Jeff, if you hate dogs that can't work, get used to it. Gene pools shrink when ever humans become involved, they get tighter and tighter. The same happens with protection dogs, eventually the number of breeders that have the genes available to make good dogs really shrinks. The only way around that is to make sure that good genes spread far and wide. It is a different mindset then most. Most are trying to make sure the next litter is the best possible, spreading good genes far and wide does not mean that the next litter will be good as possible, it just means that at some point in the future a good breeder will atleast have the building blocks available to make good dogs. One is a short term view, the other is long term.

I don't hate the dogs, I hate the people who didn't keep the original dog in mind.

Jeff, understood, I did not mean to imply that you actually Hated the dogs themselves <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As far as keeping the original dog in mind, that’s a lot like religion, goodness knows how many different views of Christianity there are, and they ALL think they have the "original purpose" in mind.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Tammy Dempsey:
Deanna, I agree that the only sure way is to spay/neuter myself, however that would require me to have surgery done on wee babes, OR hold them until they are old enough for safe surger! We're seeing more and more dogs with incontinence issues due to these procedures being performed on very immature animals as it is. Our local SPCA has that policy and I can't tell you how many botched procedures and lifelong incontinence problems we have seen! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I disagree that both the CKC and the AKC don't recognize each other's limited registration. I don't see any valid reason for it... if a buyer is purchasing the dog on a non-breeding spay/neuter contract, they obviously do not intend to enter the conformation circuit. Since reproductive organs are not required for any other competition, it seems like it should be a non-issue! :rolleyes:
Tammy.

Just wanted to clarify that when I made my statement above about the spay/neuter contracts I wasn't directing it at you. It was news to me that they are impossible to enforce even for a state shelter until about 2-3 years ago. I mentioned it because I am sure there are others that did not realize it. It comes back to the trust issue and proper selection of homes and follow up with their owners. I call and pop in on the dogs that are local. I pester the rest via email and phone. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

While it seems silly that the AKC/CKC can't get along on the Limited Registration/Non-breeding contract, I can certainly understand why it is not done. Since BOTH offer the option to be lifted later, which kennel club has to lift it? The issuing or the present? Does the breeder have to pay BOTH KC'S? etc. That would be my guess as to why.

I breed working line dogs. My last litter has a pup who's owner has informed me she is going to finish him in the Canadian breed ring as well as continue and trial in SchH as well as the SV ring. While I certainly don't breed for the CKC show ring, more power to her! Go Arlo! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

(for those of you gagging, on the whole, the dogs put up in the CKC ring are a LOT more moderate for the most part than the dogs in the AKC) Worst case lots of people see my puppy lose. But, hey if just a few see what a dog with a brain looks and acts like it is all good! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Deanna, Congrats on "Arlo".So what if he exceeds within the CKC realm..So what if the owner chose AKC..if they had. The most important thing is that the result of your breeding..in"working"..is being seen...through the correct buyers that have drive within themselves..and go for what is available for them..in their area.Its a damn good thing..that a gsd with brains..enter into all "Different Groups".Then maybe at some point.."all groups" will recognize the layers of that smart brain..and realize drives..and breed accordingly..to balance and /or move up those that are missing.BUT not foresaking in the midst the genetic anatomy...for work..to go along with that brain.

Too early for any congrats in my book, but time will tell... they are just babies yet.

Jeff, I am following what you are saying and i understand.First let me say that I have never trained protection dogs..within that statement..do not assume lol that I couldn't.I have just not publicly entered into that realm.In ref to the police officer that entered in with the "AKC" dog..that freaked.Don't blame the gsd under that registration..Blame the officer with lack of knowledge in choice..of a dog within that registry...for a purpose needed...and contacting the right breeder.If you are sending 99% home as rejects to your program..then maybe you should step back and look at the genetics of the individuals that are coming to you.That is not a bash to you at all..I am only saying..that there are different genetics within each separate breed and cross breed.. Reaction and determination..is not all the same..so therefore as a trainer..It is an impossibilty to set one generic course of training.

I bought my female GSD with a limited registration and have no problem with that at all. I know it's the breeders attempt to keep some control over her lines and breeding. She is a RESPONSIBLE breeder trying to make sure only her best dogs pass on the best attributes. And I was as fully checked out as a potential RESPONSIBLE puppy owner before I got the puppy to assure I WOULD fulfill the agreement I signed upon purchase of the puppy (which included knowledge of the limited registration).

I didn't see it as getting a lesser pup particularly. I realize that in a litter of say 7 pups not all of them are going to be EXACTLY what the breeder is looking for (even if my breeder is the best in the entire world), for what ever reason. And just because she maybe picks out the 2 puppies she 'thinks' will be the best Schutzund pups (what she is breeding for and the lines SHE wants to breed) doesn't mean that the other 5 puppies aren't the absolutely best therapy dogs, search and rescue dogs, agility dogs, or perfect family pet. I don't see these dogs with the 'limited' registry as lesser pups at all, just not to be bred for the BREEDERS purpose.

I know that people I talk to don't get that AKC is just a 'registry' and means nothing, it IS something most people recognize and will pay extra for. So in my area, not being able to register the pups would have some meaning. Additionally, I purchased this pup with my eyes open and KNOWING I wasn't going to breed her. If I did want a dog for breeding, and THAT was my goal, I would never have taken her but would have worked with the breeder for one of the other pups or gone to another breeder.

I just feel a RESPONSIBLE breeder isn't just having an entire litter of pups to make money and move on. Their goal is to IMPROVE the lines/breed for whatever their breeding goal is. That said, these are (in a sense) kind of still their pups even when I've bought it and it's at my home. My breeder still keeps in touch, wants to know how my pup is doing, AND IF THERE WAS A PROBLEM WOULD TAKE HER BACK IN A SECOND! Since she feels any dog she breeds is her responsibility for it's life, the fact she also doesn't want to extend that to any puppies I may IRRESPONSIBLY breed my dog to (without the limited registration) I think these registrations are the best think AKC can come up with to try to limit the breedings.

But it DOESN'T limit breedings. That is the point, only registration of the progeny. The majority of the uneducated pet market doesn't give 2 craps about papers. If they did, there wouldn't be all the "a-poo's" out there for several hundred bucks each.

Without looking in my local paper I can tell you that right now I could probably find a litter out of two untitled, unregistered German Shepherds and buy one no questions asked today for under $300. That wasn't stopped by a limited registration now was it?

It comes down to responsible placement and follow up, not a piece of paper. For anyone here knows the dogs above could have come from a breeder who sold the dogs on limited registration to a pet home half-way across the country. Heck, if the pup buyers are lucky they are even brother and sister! (rolleyes)

It is sad that our breed is so popular that this is common.

There are very good and very responsible breeders who don't sell dogs on limited registrations.


Selling dogs on limited registration is not a requirement for being a responsible breeder.