Sorry, tried to edit the first post. The dog I mentioned that I thought was Schutzhund 2 and might be AKC pointed, is actually AKC Pointed, V-rated Gawan v Zimmerplatz SchH3

Thought I'd give him proper accrediation, since I verified it by his website. He is currently competing out around the shows I attend.

Come on, don't be like that Ms. Attitude. I KNOW there are working line Rotts that go get CH titles. Do you know the breeder of Jeneck's, I do. I live a few hours from his house. I've been to his club, he has been to mine. I've spoken with him at length. I've seen his dogs compete in the DVG AND have seen their long list of accomplishments. How many AKC show line dogs are in his German lines?

I never said working line Rotts can't do well in conformation shows, we're not talking GSDs here. Conformation line dogs can't do well in working shows, which is what all AKC show line dogs are. It isn't a difficult concept.

"Maybe" that was my point is inaccurate. It was exactly my point, here are the quotes from before.

"If you are talking about AKC show bred Rotts then you are absolutely wrong."

"The working blood has been strained out of the American lines. There are good conformation Rotts that can work and do, but you wont' find them in any AKC ring. They are ARV and ADRK dogs, organizations that require working tests to breed."

Ok, working vs. show aside, put a Schutzhund III title on your dog, win some competitions, register your dog with the ARV and live up to their breeding requirements, and then have some REAL working dog trainers evaluate what you "think" is working potential in your dog (like real work).

Don't breed the dog until that has happened, that is my advice. That is the correct way to develop a stud dog from a working breed.

Contracts and other considerations come later.

Can you tell I got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?

One note, Eckart never put a CH title on any of his dogs that won national Schutzhund (ARV) championships, or on any dogs that won DVG regional championships. Reason why is that they did crappy at AKC shows. He did manage to WIN ARV and ARDK conformation shows with these dogs. Hmmmm. . .

Wrong side of the bed...nah. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

malinoisinkansas,
Fortuately in the case of the Malinois, people in society care too much about a dog's appearance. That may be what's saved the Malinois this long.

Brad G,
Are you suggesting that the malinois is still around just because of its appearance? I'll admit, I am no expert on this exact type of breeding, but I did extensive research on this and several other breeds and, it seems to me, the vast majority of these dogs are still used for what they were intended for. Unfortunately, according to my research, the same is not true for several of the better known breeds. If a person like myself wanted a personal protection dog, his odds of finding a good one would be higher if he were to pick a malinois rather than a GSD or a Rott.

I think what he meant was that the show people left the Malinois alone because it wasn't as 'cute and fluffy' as say, the Terv or Sheepdog. The Malinois is pretty much, what you see is what you get, in terms of a the show ring. Nothing showy or flashy about them compared to other breeds. And that is what saved them from being ruined in the working ability by show people.

Thats how I interpreted at least <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

why is it when a newbie or someone that doesnt necessarily post often posts something a select few of the board (to include moderators) will reply in either an unhelpful way or even go so far as to just flat out be rude and condescending....then when the original poster comes back with a good response they say "attitude"???? beats me but i find it amusing.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> :rolleyes:

So if a dog has a Sch3 or IPO3 then it's safe to consider this dog a working dog that should be bred?...... I don't think so.
I think it would be more accurate to call these dogs "Sport Dogs", as most of these dogs will probably not go into Police Work or SAR. Many shc3, ipo3, fr, knpv etc dogs, MAY not even bite a perp without a sleeve or suit!

What does everyone agree to as to the requirements to be a working dog? To me it would be MWD, PSD, SAR, Herding, Hunting etc.
I don't think its the best thing to generalize about AKC show line dogs, each dog has itsown idividual characteristics. Personally if I were to get a GSD it would not be from American show lines, I would go more for Frawleys or Czech dogs,BUT if I saw a puppy that was real god from American show lines I would not be biased and give it a chance.

If you ever watch COPS and see SOME of the Mals they have from Holland KNPV lines, you won't be too impressed many don't even do a B&H on a leash or evenfocus on the bad guy. My point? These dogs are from "working " lines.

There are also plenty of "show" Mals here in the U.S. that have been spoiled as well (temperment wise).

I agree with Van Camp when his advice was towards Work work and working ability.

George

RESPONSE to Bubbajoedog's Quote;
why is it when a newbie or someone that doesnt necessarily post often posts something a select few of the board (to include moderators) will reply in either an unhelpful way or even go so far as to just flat out be rude and condescending....

Bubbajoedog; you might as well get used to it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
This can and will happen to everyone; don't think only newbe's get this treatment. :rolleyes: We have all bee hammered at one time or the other, sometimes in jest other times for whatever. Sometimes you just have to use good judgement with any info obtained on the internet.

I do find it hard to believe anyone that post on this Board will intentially give bad advice. You may get opinions and advice you don't agree with.

What dog training and handling is all about. Different methods and disciplines train differently. That's what makes this Forum so great, you get to choose and use any and all or combinations of info posted. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bubbajoedog; The knowledge that the members of this Board has is unreal, use it to your advantage, learn from the mistakes of others.

These are just mu opinions for what they are worth. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, the ARV does NOT require working tests to breed. The majority of the people I see at the ARV shows are the same people who end up at the AKC shows. The ARV also only requires hips, while the ADRK encourages elbows.

Try the USRC -- they even have a breed warden.