I call this “glazed over” because if you look close his eyes probability are dilated - he is not only locked into prey as Van Camp mentioned but also defense committed. He thinks it is the safest place to be in this fight in on the sleeve.

I have tried and worked with the techniques described all with success.

The idea Eric explained will work if this problem is only prey driven. I think this is one method that should be considered if only to see where your dog is working more clearly.

The method described by Richard Cannon is known as a ”Praise Off”. If I am reading it correctly David is already doing it and it works.

This is using another prey item or agitator to condition the release on command works with most of these dogs.

Here is the rub: The praise off method works most of the time but you can accidentally condition the dog to bite and immediately release because he is looking for the next bite or gifty.

The method outlined by Van Camp I think is a good one but if the dog is “glazed” and connected to the safe issue, it may or may not work. Like he said “The dog is learning two ways. The behavior that brings the reward, while at the same time the behavior that avoids the pain. Less conflict in the dog to out if he learns out means fight will begin again.”

If the dog is locked in prey and engaged in what he believes is the fight of his life each time he hits the sleeve he may not out. If he does out to avoid the stim and gets the reward his bite could turn nervy but not usually.

Be careful here…Sometimes what happens is the dog reinforces the idea that he is in the fight of his life and you never fix the problem. It becomes like a neurosis. Anxiety causes neurosis and if the dog thinks he is safest to the sleeve and “in control” he will continue to refuse to out.

I once thought it always worked but I have seen a dog keep to the zone and not release until he was “blue tongued.” Each time he would do bite work he would go to full mode and it made me consider he had a deeper problem. I am not saying this is the case with this dog you are talking about but keep it in mind.

Ok here is another idea to add…

Separate from the bite teach another command for DOWN. If he knows German and English make up a word.

Make this command a solid one and use the corrective leash and not prey motivation here. Teach him with this: command – correct – praise and pat - release command

Make this “new word” solid and be fast to the correction for no response. David I know you understand the 3 and free rule of corrections so I won’t go there.

Once he drops to command and is reliable to it teach him “Down in motion” with this command. We are pairing action/movement and being able to redirect movement into to a static position. It will be useful to open new channels in the dogs mind about what is taking place

My next question: Does the dog to a bark and hold?

I need an answer before I can continue…

For those who wonder where I am going with this: It will be useful to open new channels in the dogs mind about what is taking place. If he has neurosis symptoms wth the bite redirection of prey or pain avoidance may stop the problem for a while (for this battle) but will not carry over to win the war.

We need to rewire his head and make direct him to a common think he knows, is not fearful about and unde4stands there are consequences for not doing it..something he knows like the down action. He will think his stim is now because of not following a simple obedience command. One he just learns and had been reinforced. In his mind he has not fused it to the “game” of bite work like he may have done with the command to OUT.

When he is redirected we can then get back to his mind and say out…later he can just be out-ed by one commend but for now he needs to re-habituate the command after an extended period using down/out commands. (the down “word” is called and then immediately followed b the out command)

Make certain the dog is conditioned to this new word for down before you try anything else. On the down in motion you should hear his elbows hit the floor..he needs to be reactive.

Answer the question about hold and bark and we cn go from there.

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The dog does not know a bark and hold.Im still rolling around in my head what Van C said about the civil agitation and peicing it together in my head with the out.Any comments on that?Would it take enough emphasis off the sleeve to assist in the out.I know he is saying do this at the end of the other training but I would think if doing civil agitation on this dog ( locked in prey drive) there should be no sleeve guarding just civil.Or am I wrong. Actually I could argue it both ways in my head.

Eric, I didn't say stim the dog as he is loosening the grip. It was said that the dog isn't outing at all, so the dog isn't moving as you start the longer command Auuuuuuuuuussssss. I do exactly what you say, give him ample time to realize the stim is going to happen. AAuuuuuuuuus-stim-sssss

If the dog is coming off, then don't stim him as he does. You have already solved your problem. I give the long command just like you give the command and wait. My way for the dog is "command has started- stim is comin". Your way is "command given- then the stim comes".

My way makes for a faster out at the onset of the command. The dog immediately realizes he has to get off the damn sleeve ASAP! Not command THEN ASAP.

That is how we have done it to get really quick outs for sport work and protection. Once he gets the idea he will be trying to beat the stim. . .and miraculously one day he outs fast enough and does. That point the dog has learned what it takes to beat the stim and will out faster IMO.

David, what do you think the dog is doing. Is he locked in "the fight", or is this a mega prey monster issue with a overly conditioned Malinois on his sleeve?

Maybe that would be a good thing to figure out.

Robert,

I reread your post. I don't konow where I got that sorry. Sounds like a good plan.

Eric

Van C, he looks like a prey monster when going out and taking the bite and locking on,but when the out starts it becomes a battle that the dog I believe feeds off of by hanging on to the sleeve.This was without the e-collar.Ill know more next week.I think Ill do the boring helper at the end of the long line(back tied)out with stim and rebite with animated helper(using the back tie to keep the dog from rebiting).I think have the helper be boring on the first bite,no pressure no eye contact and then out then animated helper only for the rebite.Sounds like a modified bark and hold but thats my plan for now unless there are some more ideas.Thanks

I think that one of the reasons that you’re having so many problems is that you’ve introduced so much conflict into the training. You’re hurting the dog with the Ecollar and the pinch to get him to release and that’s simply not necessary. A dog that’s high in prey drive is prepared by nature, to endure all sorts of pain. You’re just not communicating with him.

Some dogs think that any pain they get during a bite comes from the decoy. How does a dog make that pain stop? They kill the decoy, they don’t release him. That means they bite harder, not release the bite.

At a seminar I did a few years back they had a dog that hadn’t released a bite, real or during training, for three years. He’d been choked unconscious to get him to release each bite he’d had in that time. I had him outing cleanly and with little fuss in about 45 minutes.

I began by teaching the recall with an Ecollar, using low level stimulation, and then proofing it. I’m pretty sure this is outlined, elsewhere on the Forum. If not, let me know and I’ll post it.

I then put four decoys on the field. The dog will pick one of them that he prefers and then he’s sent to bite ANY of the others, but not the one he prefers.

The recall command is then given and the handler walks away. Usually a stimulation isn’t needed for this. But if it is, it’s given, at the same low level as was used during the recall training. The dog is redirected to another decoy, still not the dog’s favorite. Then another recall and another redirect. Never is the dog directed to his favorite decoy.

It’s simply a matter of working with the dog instead of against him. Many trainers never get to this point because they see themselves as separate from the dog. I see us working on the same team, for the same purpose. I see us as partners.

Some trainers teach the handler to be the alpha but never put the dog into the proper position in the pack. They just teach the handler that he has to be the dominant one. I teach the dog that he’s the number TWO animal in the pack. As such, he has certain rights AND responsibilities. This results in a totally different relationship between the handler and the dog.

Lou, I don't understand. Can you run it by me one more time?

What Lou is calling for is another form of redirection.

I asked if the dog had already had and hold and bark training because I thought he probably did not. This training would have allowed a form of control at some point and not just made the dog into a land-shark.

I would be careful in this training with E-collar except for the recall and I think if you do use it it should come before the dog engages the decoy and is committed to the bite. If you don’t the dog may get the bite. Train for success. The use of an E-collar is non-directional as a correction. Some dogs mistake it as helper agitation.

Again multiple helpers (if even you have multiple helpers available) could result in bite and release looking for next bite. Maybe I am not seeing the whole picture Lou is has outlined.

I do agree with what he said, “….a matter of working with the dog instead of against him. Many trainers never get to this point because they see themselves as separate from the dog. I see us working on the same team, for the same purpose. I see us as partners.”

The problem: A great way to avoid the problem as it develops but not useful in fixing a “glazed over” biter because at the point where he hit the sleeve and loads internally, eye dilated he is hardly aware of the handler and their relationship. It is why he does not follow directives after the bite.

Still the need to redirect the flow and interrupt the dog’s mentality is important. I will post the second part of a solution I use later tonight when I have more time.

I attended a Schutzhund club meeting a while back. The person who invited me is a judge. After she worked her dog, she told me she always waits for the dog to out on his own. It took several minutes that day - in fact, he even tried to take the sleeve into his cage.

In order for me to better understand the different schools of thought, let me ask whether that is a good or bad idea? Why please?

Thanks

Doyle

Doyle, if a police dog bites the wrong person "waiting till the dog outs on his own" isn't real practical. Some would never let go if they had their way <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />