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It is interesting to see the belgians breeding Gsd's I know that I talked to a guy from belgium that called them goats. He wondered why anyone would want such a worthless dog.

Ha! probbly a mal guy? well then howcome OUR GOATS are doing so well??? food for thought.goats? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ha ha!

too many people trying to cash in on the latest fad dog. In the 60's collies and german shepherds were overbred and working abilities pissed away. The 70's brought the rise of Doberman same thing overbred; people with no business with a working dog though they were cute in Disney movies. 80's Rottie's pop grew and working ability lost. Soon or later, it will happen to Mal's because every crackhead and Bubba wants the baddest dog they can get.

i agree tracy, you can even see it here in the mals, nearly everyone wants a mal and breeders have to keep up with demands, now mals are not my specific area but i have seen quite a few who were very nervous and difficult to work and having difficulties adjusting to new surrounding. i have also heard complaints from people about the mals. now im not trashing the mals here, a know there are still good mal breeders, im talking in general here.

The guy I was talking to did belgium ring so no Gsd don't do well. I am not a mal or gsd or rott or dobe or anything guy. I like dogs that work and could care less about the breed. Mals are going to take a header for sure. Schutzhund is not a breed test for these dogs, and thats what most people are doing. Europeans cull their litters, so a lot of the trash doesn't get attention. Plus here in US show people (evil demons) have gotten into the breed and have websites all over touting their genetic trash for all the world to see. But at least I am not bitter.

Tracy:

The club I belong to our good friends of Heinz and Inga Balonier, it was pleasure to train with them and just listen to them talk about dogs. Heinz said their will never be another dog like Cliff, Randy tyson paid big bucks for Cliff. On a side note Inga retired Nastor at age 11 and I believe in 1998 Wsuv he was the oldest dog competing. Cliff produced a dog by the name of Nello von Haus Tyson that took 2nd at the North Americans in 1996. Very pleased with this Forum, very good information be talked about.

Regards,

Mario

Mutz was the last showdog that produced working dogs well. I saw tons and tons of Cliff crap. He threw way too much stuff that harkened back to Palme Wildsteigerland.

There was a discussion on Orry Antreftal.....good for producing prey but no way was he a show dog. i also haven't been too keen on the working profeny from him, just big prey dogs with little fighting character.

I too would give my left one for some Bernd semen. It would be way more valuable than my own. I had quite a few dogs that were linebred from the 3,4,and 5 generations from him.

But, what we all need to understand is that there are two populations of GSD, working and show. Let the show folks fumble around and once in a while a good worker will still be produced, the breeders of these dogs can then sing their own praises about still producing working dogs. But the reality is that dogs with fighting instinct, hardness (read hardness as the ability to recover from duress) is the venue of a few working dog enthusiasts regardless of whether they appear in the BSP or not.
Cliff was handled by a good trainer and was individually a good animal, no doubt about it. This caused him to be bred every single oportunity possible....bitches lined up as freequently as SV rules allow for a long time. So, two, only two BSP competitors ain't no big thing for progeny.

Ken, I got off subject with Robert.I though he asked ,about the Belgian sport dogs and the Orry i was referring to is Orry von Haus Antverpa 2 time wusv champ and how the Belgian take a stable good at everything and breed to stronger drive females or reverse that to improve in the future lines. They have been fairly successful at it in WUSV. When you trace these dogs their progeny have competed well some better than other and produce a couple of WUSV champs and competitors that did well. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/5/42051.html
I'm glad you entered the discussion,but I think people involved in sport and worklines should hold showlines to higher standard when these dogs are giving sch3 title and their dogs will only bite a biscuit. It cheapens the value of being involved with sch and gives working dogs a black eye.

I would think that if you taped these awful performances and submitted the tape to the organization with the judges name, that maybe this would get thier attention. I think that if a person wants to judge and likes to judge, getting called back would involve passing some weak dogs. If you were hard but fair so many people would complain you wouldn't get to judge. Think about the egos attatched to people's dogs. No one likes to hear a bad review of thier dog even if it is true.

I´m not really fond of breeding to the winnerdogs in big SCH-competitions. Obviously they had a very skilled trainer to win, trainerskill is not something passed on by the genes. I guess flashy titles makes puppy easier to sell and makes more money too. Few dogs are both good producers and also SCH-champ in WUSV or BSP, many good dogs goes to handlers not able to train dogs to higher levels, and also some dogs are a bit to strong to be able to perform the precise routines that are required to win in a big trial.
Breeding to the topwinners is not the way to improve this breed I think.

That's a legitimate point, Stig. You always have to question whether or not a high scoring WUSV or BSP dog is a real tough and powerful dog.

A lot of breeder/trainers will tell you there are trial dogs and then there are those dogs that are not trial dogs, but make for great breeding stock. I inquired about a dog that Rinus Bastiaansen of Kennel von der Daelenberghütte had and was breeding from. I asked if he would be showing the dog in trials. He said something to the effect of "no freaking way, this is NOT a trial dog." His point was that the dog was extremely powerful and you wouldn't be able to polish a dog for high level competition like that without totally hammering him to hell . . .and spending a lot of time as a bloodly pincushion. Great dog for breeding and improving working ability, not a great dog for the trial field.

This is one of the better Belgian breeders, so there's something to be said for that. How kickazz are these dogs in the high level trials? We don't know unless we see them in the flesh and they are tested in the flesh.

Not to say that they are not great dogs, or that there are no high scoring dogs that aren't absolute killers (because there are some scary dogs on the trial fields), but it's something to think about.