This story quoted below defines self-defense.
A dog with strong fighting instincts here would have chomped down harder on the sleeve, driven back into the decoy, or drug back on the decoy.
It could be fighting instinct in an untrained dogs that carried it through the experience.
Don't confuse the idea that a dog must become scasred to trigger fighting behaviors. If fear is the trigger then the definition MUST be self-defense.
No drives stand entirely alone and many dogs overlap the drives that can and do make up the apprehension phases of both training and practical application. In practical application the balance is generally shifted to favor the dog with higher levels of fighting instincts but does not preclude acceptable performance from dogs showing a variety of behaviors in a practical circumstance.
Training fighting instinct or combat drive is an opportunistic event. A well qualified decoy sees it and responds to it during the work. Because theis may or may not happen on a regualar basis the system of training in self-defense has come into play a lot in recent years. To deal with the stress of such training (because it is based in fear it causes a lot of stress on the dog) a system of training heavily in prey and shifting to prey has evolved within sport schools. We still also see the old school style of almost all prey work as well, and in fact I have seen this more and more in the dogs that I have imported in the last few years. I prefer this over the self-defense based training that also exists.
But, be very clear if the dog when challenged feels fearful it is self-defense based. If when challenged the dog shows something more than prey and rises to the event with increasing confidense...this is combat drive or fighting instincts...pick your vocabulary here.

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quick story <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> decoy is working my dog with a sleeve he is takeing good lower and upper bites ( synthetic sleeve)decoy is working left to right. dog is in prey even though the whip is cracking and the decoy is yelling and the dog is thrashing. the decoy asks if my dog is real ( i love that question ). i reply a simple yes and the decoy sais sure he is and drives the dog backwards towering over him and striking him with the whip handle on the sides. my dog instantly releases ears back tail strait out and instantly grabs the decoy buy the leg decoy goes down the dog is on his ( the decoys ) back ripping and thrashing. i outed the dog it took 2 commands. do you see the diferance in the drives? the decoy is now a better decoy due to the situation and thankfully for a good pair of leather scratch pants only sufferd some bruising and a torn up ego. when the dog goes from prey or defence to offence and kicking butt NOW THATS FIGHT DRIVE
TOM

Do you think you have to train for it?

I don't think you have to train for it...because few dogs have the base to build upon, few dogs really want to pick a fight with a person.

I certainly think that when a young dog shows a "propensity" to want to fight, an experienced decoy will show the dog...at the precise moment...what "style" of biting caused the decoy to submit, to yell in pain, to go limp, to cower, etc.

If the decoy(s) build on this enough, with the right dog, I think you'll get better and better fights, as opposed to simple apprehensions.

So I don't think you train it. I think you enhance it.

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I don't think you have to train for it...because few dogs have the base to build upon, few dogs really want to pick a fight with a person.

Andres could we have your definition of "fight drive" please? My definition has nothing to do with wanting to "pick" a fight with a human. It has to do with detaining or driving off an opponent. It's satisfied by either finish, driving off or detaining. The website I referred to earlier, Donn Yarnall's, also defines it this way.

Quote:I certainly think that when a young dog shows a "propensity" to want to fight, an experienced decoy will show the dog...at the precise moment...what "style" of biting caused the decoy to submit, to yell in pain, to go limp, to cower, etc.

This is how we "teach" a dog to look better than he is. We reward these actions and create an artificial look through our rewarding.

I am talking about a dog that is going to try to hurt you, or die trying. No additional action on the decoys part necessary.

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detaining or driving off an opponent. It's satisfied by either finish, driving off or detaining.

Detaining, for me...would be more a prey exercise. Driving off...would be a defensive behavior.

Fight drive IS satisfied by "finish" as in submitting an opponent.

My definition of fight "drive" is "a propensity and willingness to engage in a fight...certainly NOT to aprehend, and less to drive away...but to "kick the opponent's butt", to do combat...specially delightful to watch when a dog displays this in the face of adversity.

Please note that I do not refer to barking, growling, posturing, etc., but rather to a desire to use the teeth...or any other body part...in active combat against an adversary.

I would disagree with you, Jeff...a little...as I think that fight drive is also a function of maturity (as of genetics)...and as such can be constrained, subdued, diminished, if the dog is not assisted in winning his initial - young - displays of this drive.

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Detaining, for me...would be more a prey exercise.

No wonder people are disagreeing. We're not using anywhere near the same definitions. This is one of the problems with discussion of drives. I referred people to Donn Yarnall's website where the three combat drives are discussed but apparently you didn't bother to go look or you'd prefer to stay with your own definitions. Is anyone else using these words as Andres does? Donn (and I) and most people define the drives as follows.

Prey drive - involved with the chasing, catching, killing and eating of prey. The origin of Prey is "getting something to eat." In your comment above, detaining an opponent has nothing to do with prey. Dogs don't regard "something to eat" as an opponent. Prey drive is satisfied by killing the prey.

Defense drive - Involved with survival by defending oneself. This can be by combat or by running away from an opponent that's perceived as too big or too tough to defeat. Defense is satisfied by surviving the encounter.

Fight drive - Involved with the detaining or driving off an opponent. It has nothing to do with getting "something to eat." It has only to do with combat with an opponent. It is satisfied by detaining or driving off the opponent.

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Driving off...would be a defensive behavior.

I disagree based on the definitions supplied above. "Driving off" can a part of defense drive but only if the dog bluffs, showing hair, growling, showing teeth to get that job done. If he does it by calmly standing his ground or by physical combat, it's fight drive.

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Fight drive IS satisfied by "finish" as in submitting an opponent.

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My definition of fight "drive" is "a propensity and willingness to engage in a fight...certainly NOT to aprehend, and less to drive away...but to "kick the opponent's butt", to do combat...specially delightful to watch when a dog displays this in the face of adversity.

I'd call this "fighting drive" not fight drive. Some people use these terms interchangeably but I think that's a mistake, if only because it confuses the conversation. I don't know of anyone else who uses this definition. If it works for you, that's great, the reason we invented drives was so that we could use a model to think (ourselves) about how training worked and what we were doing and to communicate with others about what we were doing. The latter end, communication, isn't working here because our definitions don't even come close to one another.

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Please note that I do not refer to barking, growling, posturing, etc., but rather to a desire to use the teeth...or any other body part...in active combat against an adversary.

If you'll take a look at my stakeout test on Dr. P's website, http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/castle1.htm you'll find more information about how these drives are invoked, what the dog looks like when he's in them and how I use them.

Long yakking over nothing. That's a high horse you're on. Have a great day and enjoy the view. Andres.

Here is a link to some vocabulary that might help people get on the same page here.
The posts are confusing sharpness, self-defense,fight drive, etc. It might help to read the whole vocabulary. It is not something I made up but something I borrowed from one of the German Police Dog schools although there are some explanations and examples I added myself. Note that here in the US essentially the same definitions are used by the USBP, Utah POST, Nebraska State Patrol, and Kansas Highway Patrol as well as many others.
http://www.k9services.com/CaninePsychology.htm