I would just like to comment...

Would the differences in size of people in the Philippines compared to the US contribute to the differences in training, at least that which Mila condones? (Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't PUDA start out with prey drive as well? At least from what I've seen in their website and talked to them about). In other words, in the US a PPD will be faced with a 200 pound man easily, while a person that huge in the Philippines will probably be fat, in general. Or the fact that Filipinos in general are much more ignorant and afraid of dogs, so the dogs don't have to put up as much of a fight.

I just say this because from what I've learned so far if a dog's confidence hasn't been built on prey, and is purely defense, it can be scared off much faster. But like I said, it's just a comment. I know a lot of other (name withheld) kennels in the US that go with defense training as well.

I think there's a certain wisdom in prey training anyway. If you're going to fight, wouldn't you want to learn *how* to at first? Let the dog have fun before all the serious stuff. Give him only what he can chew. When he's old enough you could always proof him from chasing balls in the playground and stuff; at least he's happy.

Would the differences in size of people in the Philippines compared to the US contribute to the differences in training, at least that which Mila condones? (Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't PUDA start out with prey drive as well? At least from what I've seen in their website and talked to them about). In other words, in the US a PPD will be faced with a 200 pound man easily, while a person that huge in the Philippines will probably be fat, in general. Or the fact that Filipinos in general are much more ignorant and afraid of dogs, so the dogs don't have to put up as much of a fight.

-----
Kay I think the size of a perpetrator wont matter that much, just like a dog size wont matter that much either. If
there's something ive learned so far it will be, dont under estimate the survival instinct of any man no matter what sizes they maybe or how ignorant they may seem. PUDA conducts sport trial, isnt it? And kay I'm not condoning anything, I'm in no position to do that, Im here to learn more.
-----

I just say this because from what I've learned so far if a dog's confidence hasn't been built on prey, and is purely defense, it can be scared off much faster. But like I said, it's just a comment. I know a lot of other (name withheld) kennels in the US that go with defense training as well.

-----
ive also heard that dogs train mainly on prey drive will likely go after the thrown ball instead of the decoy. im tryin to humor you kay, what im saying is keep an open mind we are here to learn, not to put others down.
----

If you're going to fight, wouldn't you want to learn *how* to at first?

-----
i agree, your dog must know what will really happen in a fight, from the start.
-----

Let the dog have fun before all the serious stuff. Give him only what he can chew. When he's old enough you could always proof him from chasing balls in the playground and stuff; at least he's happy.

-----
Our dogs got plenty of time for fun, its training they take seriously.

I think explaining different methods in written text are very hard and also leaves room for much misunderstandings. The question was if a homedefence or PP dog must have lots of prey. As already pointed out a dogs different drives works together, and we can´t separate each drive when we say what is needed or not.
A dog doesn´t need to love chasing balls and enjoying preygames to be effective, but of course all dogs probably have prey more or less. For a PP dog defence, sharpness, fightdrive and good nerves are more important than the high preydrive. What counts is to strenghten the genetic traits a dog has, and there are different ways to do that. What works best is upp to each dog and the knowledge of the particular trainer that perform the training. It´s more often the trainer that lacks skills not that a certain method are better than others.

I think when people hear the term defencetraining, they think of someone without a clue that stresses a dog so it´s only option is flight or bite, that´s not the way I think about when I say defencetraining, or serious training. The key is to find a balance so the dog use all drives he has in interaction, and feel confident in that.

Mila, I think when Will said a junkyard dog he meant a guarddog that barks but doesn´t stand his ground if someone really enters the area and challange the dogs. There are of course many of these dogs, but there are different levels of guarddogs and demands required from them. An advanced guardog with the right genetic traits are very hard to find in the GSD and malinois breeds, this type of dogs for sure are no "bluffers" or weak scared dogs.
But I guess this types of dogs are not the discussion here, more PP-type of dogs.

I think part of the problem here is misunderstanding. The usage of the words and stuff.

A dog in prey drive is of course playing. I don't believe anyone said anything about keeping a dog in prey drive. The dog is *started* out in prey drive, and then taught how serious things can be. The prey is foundation. And then defense comes next. The dog is taught how to fight by playing with him. And then he is shown, when he knows the techniques, how to counter and stuff like that, that this probably isn't all just a game, and somehow he can be hurt for real, so he has to really fight back.

I think we all basically have an idea of how this works, we only think people are saying something that they aren't.

PUDA is sport, but they do reality-based scenarios as well don't they? Muzzle agitation, hidden sleeves, having the dog discern the aggressor around a group of people in bitesuits? I was quite impressed by what I saw. I see all these PPD stuff where the dog bites someone in a hidden suit or defense of the handler but a dog jumping out of a car to get someone with a gun? Not very smart, but quite fun to watch.

PUDA is sport, but they do reality-based scenarios as well don't they? Muzzle agitation, hidden sleeves, having the dog discern the aggressor around a group of people in bitesuits? I was quite impressed by what I saw. I see all these PPD stuff where the dog bites someone in a hidden suit or defense of the handler but a dog jumping out of a car to get someone with a gun? Not very smart, but quite fun to watch.

-----
there are so much more in real protection training than biting. can you actually say based on the pics you saw that they are working their dogs on defense? do they use the same decoy for sports and for real training? I will keep my observation to my self until i personaly witness what really happen.

What's PUDA? I don't remember hearing about it.

Philippine Utility Dog Association.

I thought we're here to learn, not put others down like you said? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

\\\Ive heard that dogs trained mainly on prey drive will likely go after the thrown ball instead of the decoy.\\\ Mila

\\\A dog in prey drive is of course playing.\\\ Kay

The above are two comments that need some straightening out...the first about a dog that will go for a ball instead of the decoy, would be a labrador retriever, of course... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

A sound dog of good breeding FROM THE protection breeds, that-s been properly socialized and trained WILL NOT GO FOR THE ball. That said, quite a few specimens from the protection breeds have so much PLAY drive that they will go for the ball. These have detector dog potential.

Bottom line NOT ALL DOGS SHOULD BE PROTECTION DOGS.

The second comment on PREY equals PLAY, is totally wrong. PREY equals hunt and kill. Please note that at any point in the hunt and kill deal, things may go a bit sour for the predator, and he may have to use defense and fight drive.

I would contend that a lioness has very abundant prey drive. No one in their right mind would think that a skipping tennis ball would distract her from a food chase.

Good PPD training should focus on developing lets say SERIOUS PREY WORK. Tug of war GAMES in the lower classes of dogs in dog sports are games only. The better dogs *and trainers* will have other drives at work in the sport deal, that REALLY enhance performance.

I view the stuff Ive written like its pretty much written in stone...most certainly not by me...but from all Ive seen and heard.

Please feel free to disagree, as that is what this is about.

Kay,
Thanks, I didn't know that abbreviation.
And who was your snide comment directed at?

Mila - your posts concerning the size of the people in your country VS a 200 pound helper lead me to beleive that you should not be passing out critical advise but rather reading archives and studying the art of protection training. I have seen some very intense small helpers. There only problem is in trials where they have to pick a dogs front feet to drive them.

No one in this country has ever heard of this PUDA sport. If you want to post on exactly what the sport is - thats fine - but we dont tear down other sports in the name of YOUR SPORT. The bottom line is that dog sports are dog sports - people do whatever they like in sport. Some like ring some like PSA some like Schutzhund - fact is they are all sports and in the evoilution of sport no matter how they start - they work their way backt to prey work.

What dog sports are not is police service work (PSW). Many dog sports try an emulate PSW but in fact I have never seen one that does it.