Since the dog has prey drive I can think of 2 possible ways to get his bark. First, put him on a prong collar and a harness with a long line. Get him out onto a field. Have the helper agitate him get him worked up from about 15-20 feet. Send the dog for a bark and hold/ bit. When the dog gets within a 4-5 feet block him (stop him) with the prong. Hopefully the dog will get frustrated in the moment and bit. If he stops and looses drive, have the helper make some attraction. Once you get 1 bark, he gets a bit then drop the sleeve. Keep working him like this building up the amounts of barks, and the quality of the barks, he only gets a bit for a good bark. If he shuts down, crank on him with the prong and have the helper make attraction if necessary.
A second method is to use a table. For this you are going to need to find someone who knows what they are doing. A lot of people have no idea how to use one, so be careful. In general the first few times on the table should go like this. The dog is on an elevated table so that the head of the dog is at head level to the helpers head. The handler in the beginning should be out of the picture. The dogs neck needs to be on a thick leather collar attached to a secure pole, no line. Collar is attached to a pole and to the dog tight enough so that the dog can not get out of it. The helper is going to work the dog in defense with out using a whip or sleeve. He needs to make aggressive fighting stances, pinch the dog toes, and body. He really needs to piss the dog off and work the dogs defense. The dog needs to get week and then get stronger from aggression/ defense. The helper needs to know when to give a little for the dog to get stronger. It is hard to describe but by giving ground (backing up) going behind and object (a blind or something) or subtle changes in stance, body language and movement he can build aggression and confidence in the dog. After a few sessions with the handler absent, you can bring him back into the picture. The handler needs to be next to the dog and praise him appropriately when needed. The entire time you are working him on the table he does not get any bits. After a few sessions with the handler next to him, stop using the table and work him on the field. Try the blocking technique with the prong collar and the bark.
I know a lot of people don’t like the table, and it is not for every dog. But, if you have a dog with prey drive and he is not too old, it is a technique that might be able to help you get the bark, and more passion for the dog to get the helper

Perhaps there is no need for all the stress... to begin with.

I would try it at night/evening, under low light conditions...get eyes, growls, barks, lunges, close the gap...

then move closer and closer...

use a hidden sleeve, etc. etc.

A dog that gets pressed hard up close will have issues later on...side effects...that may be more of a problem than what you have now.

Once those steps are done - and after you've introduced the muzzle WELL - try the same with a muzzle on.

Then try the same with a sleeve lying on the ground, and move on from there.

$0.02...for free!

BTW, why are you doing this? What do you want your dog for?

I was actually thinking that he shuts up when they put on the sleeve. this means he has quite a bit of prey drive. He barks when the guy doesn't have a sleeve. Put on the hidden sleeve and work the dog like always. when he is barking well give him a bite. I didn't think it was going to be add defense as an answer and thought I could get them to come up with something different. I thought it was an easy fix up, although rather unnecessary. So yes I was a butt to try and get the simple answer. Sorry <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Thank you Andre!

Andres, the dog is already selected as a MWD, it needs to handle stress. Regardless of light conditions or time of day. I’m not saying your suggestions are not good by any means, it is a good idea. The dog has to work in instincts and form drives then behaviors. When you block it on a send out it will get frustrated and bark. Since it is all ready selected as a MWD it is most likely hard enough to handle those corrections, usually it doesn’t take much any way. If he uses the prong to induce barking the dog will associate the prong corrections from the helper, thus building a pool of frustration and drive…then it gets a bit (reward/fulfillment) for it. The table if it can be done correctly, will allow the dog to learn that aggression can over come its fear. You take away the ability for the dog to do anything but fight back. When done with out the handler the dog can solidify itself, learn to build confidence by aggression that comes from fear. Then when the handler gets back in the picture, it assures the dog that this aggression is good, and I’m here to back you up, the idea is as a team we can defeat the helper. Again no whip or sleeve in any of this. When the dog is taken after a handful or more of training sessions on the filed, the dog should be more intense, powerful and serious about his work. If you can capsulate these instincts and form trained behaviors, you are going to have one hell of a dog to work with. I agree that when a dog gets worked in prey they sometimes don’t bark, but you can in most dogs get them to bark, and at that when done right, not a light chirpy bark either. You can get a serious deep clear power bark, but you’re going to need to work with power on the dog. I’m not suggesting being a maniac and be supper harsh, but he needs to be worked at his apex and pushed to learn that he can win, and win by doing what we want. The dog is currently doing it his way (no bark). He can bark, our job is to show him how, when and why (why-so it can get its reward/fulfillment). I hope that makes sense…..Chet

Chet,

I see where you come from...but...

I think to pile on stress in one or two sessions is NOT, NOT, NOT a good idea. You're tapping into survival, and that will come back to haunt you at some point. For practical dogs, there should be no compromise in the quality and qualities of the dog TO BEGIN WITH.

If there is no huge hurry, the progressive approach is best.

At the end of that progressive approach...if you have a good dog...and you've done it well...you'll be able to apply major pressure to the dog.

Also, when you say the dog has been selected...I have an anecdote to share...

I'm from El Salvador, and some time back was asked to test "selected" dogs for some people here. The first dog was brought out, I bent down, picked up a rock, and right at that moment the dog tried to rush away. It had been trained to withstand sticks, empty water bottles, chairs, bags...but in this country people throw rocks at dogs. The selection committee had not thought of that...and that aversion was very deeply rooted.

Selection in my view is just the first sieve...it doesn't mean more than that.

Having said that though, many issues can be worked through successfully. In my view...a dog that has to be built up has certain limitations and applications, as well as a dog that has to learn control because he's super high drives.

As you can tell, I'm not keen on solving problems...with dogs...using high stress as one of the first tools, and frankly, I just don't use it at all. If you're using high stress to get aggression, it's because you think you'll need agression in some practical application...right? If a dog needs that, he shouldn't be there in the first place. If you think you need aggression GET A DOG THAT IS AGGRESSIVE <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> AND has adequate prey.

It's cheaper, faster and less irritating.

If you want to use confinement, elevation, slippery surfaces as means to induce the first growls, in a reasonable manner...I submit to you that there is no need for that.

WE WILL NOT BE DISCUSSING TABLE TRAINING FOR PROTECTION ISSUES ON THIS BOARD.

Ed Frawley has made it crystal clear before that it is not a method he supports or will allow to be disseminated to the public through his webboard.


Chet, there are exactly zero reasons for going to a table for protection issues. If you want to debate that, find someone who wishes to do so. . .on another board.

Thanks

Van Camp explained my position on table training. There are far better ways to train a dog than what Chet has recommended. For those new to training I recommend that they go to my list of training articles and read what I have written on table training.

Chet is simply repeating the sales pitch that people who use table training use on novice dog trainers. It’s bull !! You don’t train a dog through fear and avoidance.

The holes in Chet’s post begin with the assumption that “the selection tests for MWD's are properly applied and interpreted.” In recent years there have been improvement in the quality of dogs and training used in the military. But there is still a long long way for them to go. I get enough personal emails from military dog handlers to know there are dogs out there that should not be there.

The original question in this thread sounds like the dog is either locked-in-prey or it has some serious training problems or it should not be a MWD.

There is not enough information in the posts to determine what it is. There is enough to say that table training on this dog with this handler is EXACTLY THE WRONG APPROACH. It’s an invitation to disaster. This is obviously a new handler. Table training in an of itself is not a good thing, Table training with a new handler is worse. This handler’s kennel master does not have the answers to the problem. If he did he would not be posting to the board. So taking a new handler and a kennel master who needs more training himself and having them go try table training is not good.

Sorry to reply to an old post, but I'm wondering how much damage can be done to a dog pushed into protection through defense and avoidance. I'm asking because I unwittingly (of course) took my dog to a trainer that appeared to be reputable (well, at least not a redneck jackass) and now I find out that this guy is notorious for ruining dogs he has not bred, so he can take advantage of a discouraged owner and sell them a "quality" puppy. My dog only went 5 times, and the 5th time I walked out because the trainer argued with me, insisting that my dog was West show lines, when he' s not. I showed him where I'd gotten the dog online, and he then claimed that "Well, maybe they're not really his parents". Talk about excuses! Anyway, now my dog doesn't like going into buildings where there are other dogs. He associates it with a freak running around and pinching him really hard, I guess. I vetoed the table idea when he brought it up as an "experiment" to show me that my dog is junk and I overpaid. Anyway, I apologize if this is covered somewhere else, but I couldn't find it. Could he have been ruined for protection already? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />