I think my question has more to do with why bother to use the clicker at all if the 'behavior itself is re-inforcing the drive goal'? I would just use a verbal 'good' to have my dog keep going so they know they are doing well, and need to continue and WHAT A GOOD DOG.

The way the 'click' was explained to me is it's used as a 'bridge' between the specific behaviour and the reward. So if your dog is getting the reward with the job it is currently doing, then you don't need the bridge at all.

Say you are teaching a NEW scent thing. And say the dog was following a trail, doing well, and then seemed to lose it because the 'whatever' is now up in the tree. Now the dog keeps searching (good dog good dog) and scenting the ground and looking around the ground and you can see they are confused. Now a dog that I had clicker trained, if it suddenly put up it's head to start scenting 'up' THAT would be when I would 'click' and REWARD. Because the dog was thinking, tried something new, that was right, and the MILLI-Second it figured out the right behavior and did it, THAT was what I want to reward. So I would 'click' and reward and the reward may be to get the scent item out of the tree for a good rousing game of tug! The 'reward' does NOT have to be food at all. It can be whatever the dog loves best but it must be something 'special' to mark the brilliant behavior you just saw.

I see the clicker as a training device, and you don't keep using it after the dog understands it's job. Because it is used as a precise 'marker' (and better than words for me because I am talking ALL the time, and my dogs are 'good dogs' most of the time) but they know that when I 'click' they were more than just good, they were BRILLIANT with whatever they just did.

Say you love your job and get paid a good salary (good dog good dog good dog). And then say one day you figure out someway to save your company a bunch of money and your boss calls you into the office to say you are getting a big bonus (click and 'treat' there!). Theoretically, you feel very appreciated, you know exactly what you did to earn the bonus, and you will be thinking how to get future bonuses! Not that you weren't doing well before! Not that you didn't enjoy your job before. But that 'click'! That 'treat' (the bonus/jackpot). Now THAT is what really gets me excited and working even harder!

I use the prong collar, I use the e-collar, I clicker train and I use whatever training method seems to work in the situation I am in. But I have found that clicker training is sometimes confusing to people, and doesn't work well for people, because they don't do it properly or understand it. Same as I see people all the time with prong collars WAY too big on their dogs (you slip them over the dogs neck, right? NOT).

Originally posted by Jenn Kavanaugh:
I think my question has more to do with why bother to use the clicker at all if the 'behavior itself is re-inforcing the drive goal'? It isn't necessary to use a marker in this situation, but it's very SMART. If you know the dog is about to find a primary reinforcer that is absolutely fabulous, and you click just before he finds it, you classically condition that fabulous excitement to the click (with enough repetitions). It just makes the click more powerful so that when you use it in a situation where perhaps the primary isn't so exciting, the dog feels a real charge of good feelings from the click anyway.

If you know the dog is about to find a primary reinforcer that is absolutely fabulous, and you click just before he finds it, you classically condition that fabulous excitement to the click Now that I get. I think I was confused because I thought the clicking was being used alot further away (timewise) from the final 'reward'.

I agree there are many advantages to "clicker training" in obedience. Since this is Ed's board, you all should know that Ed is against clicker training in all forms, shapes. You can find his "opinion" on clickers as "worthless piece of crap" in his website article.

I personally think clicker training is a "tool", just like ball on a string, or a tug under the arm.....

Any comments?

Michael wrote: "Any comments?"


No, and lets stay on topic shall we? That sounds like a great thread all to it's self.

Jenn wrote: "Now that I get. I think I was confused because I thought the clicking was being used alot further away (timewise) from the final 'reward'."


I wonder if you do, because the reward DOES NOT HAVE TO FOLLOW THE CLICK. I know that hurts, but all the clicker purists are -F-ing dead wrong.

Once you have already built the positive association (classical conditioning) with the sound of the click, the click itself becomes a secondary reinforcer.


Then in later training you can simply use the click as a reward all by its lonesome, waiting till the dog has completed the full set of behaviors that you want before you reward with the primary reinforcer. (or prey object reward, those are pretty primary to a lot of dogs)


For example, I use the clicker (there I said it!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> ) to help with heeling. I will, once I'm pretty sure a positive resonse has been conditioned to the sound of the click, click when the dog is in correct position, I'll click a few more times if he keeps that position as we go along. . .then I'll reward.

The benefit being that the clicks still mark good behavior, by offering a little positive reinforcement, but I don't have to end the behavior by rewarding with the ball. If the dog is running off after the damn ball, how does he keep heeling?


Training progresses faster. I just add this extra reinforcer to help things along in the begining. I can clearly mark exactly where correct position is without us having to end the offered behavior and start over.


If I'm doing it wrong, everybody should do it wrong. . .cuz it is working great. I never thought I'd be using a clicker. . .perhaps I'm a weak trainer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Or perhaps that sharp distinct sound is ideal to use as a conditioned reinforcer. . .even better than one's voice saying, "Good dog". Dogs become accustomed to our voices, but that click only happens when I want it to. It stays very sharp in the dog's little reactionary pea brain.


Lee. . .she made me do it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

From what Kevin said, the same concept can be applied to detection work.

VanCamp Robert, thanks for putting it so clearly. While I do understand how you are using the click as the marker, and obviously it's working great, I could see how some dogs could maybe bit confused (maybe GSD's are SMARTER than other dogs LOL).

I guess I understand the CONSISTANCY (and realize it's importance in training) of the 'everytime you click you must treat theory'. When training things like the heel I would be tossing out tiny treats (that go down in one swallow) for every click to REALLY reinforce how proud I was of what they just did and allow barely a break in the movement. Because you are absolutely correct that stopping to play ball every time you click in that situation is going to make the training a LONG DAY. On the other hand, a good fast down, or a long sit/stay, or long down/stay would allow for the motivating toy play.

So that sometimes the exact same click means 'go on and keep doing what you are doing cause it is great' as well as 'THAT was the end product and greatest thing in the world that I really wanted all along' would be confusing for my dogs.

But I realize it's working well for you, so I must be making this more complicated.

I wonder if you do, because the reward DOES NOT HAVE TO FOLLOW THE CLICK. I know that hurts, but all the clicker purists are -F-ing dead wrong.


VanCamp...When you condition the dog to the clicker, you MUST reward after the click.. It is like teaching a dog, you MUST reward with the ball or tug in the earlier stages.. After the dog is conditioned, then NO you dont have to reward after the click. Itd be nice if open their minds to what WORKS. The national champion ScH3 competor (Debra/Escobar) used the clicker method.. And she teaches that.. If youve seen her dog work, you would know it WORKS. I dont believe in clicker "purist" who do not use complusion.. Compulsion is NEEDED to proof the dog, PERIOD. Its much easier to "talk the talk" and not "walk the walk"