I work in a dog kennel.
I have seen dog aggression that was not evoked from a bad experience many times. I see it as insecurity, as a weakness. I have seen dominant dogs that never have to use aggression (biting) They can just look at other dogs and the dogs will give up. When you have seen this, I doubt that you would classify the others the same way.

With out a reason to attack another dog, ie getting attacked when young, A dominant and secure male isn't going to be out there going after other dogs like the idiot dogs I am refering to.

I understand that you get a lot of e-mails on the dog aggression, but people write them, and they can be quite subjective. Think about the study they did with eye witness accountability at the scene of an accident. This is the same sort of thing.

Working at a kennel, and volenteering at a shelter are by no means glamorous, but I get to see an awful lot of dogs, and their behavior. Don't get me wrong, I really don't think I know a whole lot about dog behavior. Everytime I do, they come up with some sort of strange twist I don't understand. Currently, I think I have a pretty good handle on this dog aggression thing. I deal with it an awful lot anymore.

So the main reason I think that it is fear based, is that it deals with an "insecurity with where the dog stands in pack order." It is always needing to resolve this "issue" in it's head, and is constantly attacking other dogs that have given up many times. This is not confidence. I am really enjoying this discussion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Quoteon't get me wrong, I really don't think I know a whole lot about dog behavior. Everytime I do, they come up with some sort of strange twist I don't understand. Currently, I think I have a pretty good handle on this dog aggression thing. I deal with it an awful lot anymore END QUOTE:

Jeff you're right you don't know a whole lot about dog behavior. You cannot possibly understand agression and the many different types of agression "WITHOUT" understanding dog behavior. In your above quote you just confirmed that! I suggest that you buy all three volumes of Steven R. Lindsay's books on applied dog behavior. Study them for a year or two and then repost something that makes sense to all of us. I also do not believe in beating a dog, EVER!

Glenn

How many times have you worked with aggressive dogs? What kind of dogs have you worked with? I am curious. Have you rehabilitated any shelter dogs?

I am very aware of the witness study you mention. Anyone who has spent much time in law enforcement knows this.

I literally have hundreds of emails from people who have witnesses serious dog fights in their home. I have one from a family who came home and found their boxer in their kitchen with its throat ripped out by their two pit bulls. Their is not a lot of question that this was not a fear based attack.

When people email me about dogs fights that take place in their homes where the owners are bitten they have very clear memories of what happened. I have a thick file of these that I am using in my book.

I am sure a lot of shelter dogs where you work have fear aggression. I have a different view of this topic. For 30 years I have worked with police service dogs, and dogs bred for police service work.

The dominant dogs I have worked with and seen from these ranks are not aggressive because of fear they the way they are because of their dominance.

With this all said - go ahead and believe what you want - maybe 20 years from now when you get more experience you will remember these posts.

I happen to agree with Glenn. If you dont understand a lot about dog behavior (your words whiuch I agree with) you can't understand dog aggression.

Your view on this topic is so far out there I had to comment. It is important that new dog handlers realize that you have a very one sided and distorted view of this multiple dog issue.

Quote:The dominant dogs I have worked with and seen from these ranks are not aggressive because of fear they the way they are because of their dominance.

OK, being that there is no reason for them to be dog aggressive, why then, other than insecurity would these dogs be this way. Why would a confidant dog care about another dog? If a dog is insecure about it's place then I can see it being dog aggressive. Other than this insecurity I can't see a reason.

So if someone can explain this to me other than it just is and I don't understand anything, I would appreciate it.

In my experience, there are a four different "combination" types of dominant dogs.

A. Confident
B. Insecure
3. Confrontational
4. Aloof

A dog that is confident (A) and aloof (4) dominant won't give a hoot about anything. They are difficult to motivate.

A dog that is confident (A) and confrontational (3) dominant is certainly dangerous!

A dog that is insecure (B) and confrontational (3) dominant is usually called a fear biter. When it senses that the pack structure is changing or it percieves a threat to the pack, it becomes both aggressive and avoidant.

I don't believe a dog that is insecure (B) and aloof (4) would be immediately considered dominant, however, once the socialization and desensitizing process is well begun, signs of dominance tend to appear along with signs of confidence.

I will leave room for error in this and would be happy to learn of other types of dominant dogs, but every dominant dog I have handled fits into one of these 4 types.

I edited my previous post that I agree with you when you say "you don't know a lot about dog behavior." You don't know a lot yet you like to come off like you do. When called on it you get defensive and it's geeting old. It's getting old!!

A truley geneticly dominant dog does not fight for pack rank through fear - to say that it does is stupid. It's rediculous and reflects little understanding of dog behavior!!! For you to say this only confirms that you need to study and learn pack behavior.

Jeff ,

I work with Police Dogs . Lately our classes have been on average 15 dogs a year . I am 1 of the trainers and our unit alone consists of 21 Patrol dogs . I've seen plenty of dog aggression in this field and the majority of it is out of dominance . In a dominant dog I don't see it's need to improve it's place coming out of insecurity I see it in it's need to take the top place because it belongs to that dog .

You asked ;

 Quote:

Why would a confidant dog care about another dog?

To establish dominance and be the leader . Being the dominant dog brings perks such as breeding rights and being the first dog to eat .


Jeff ,

How do you see 2 confident yet dominant dogs establishing dominance between them ?

I am not sure you have an answer for me. You can call me on not knowing a lot about dog behavior, but you don't have an answer for me. That is all I am asking for. I don't feel defensive, I ask you for an answer and I am attacked by others. I don't care about their opinion, I am looking for how I am sadly mistaken.
Bringing up pitbulls attacking a boxer doesn't count now does it??? Doing what they are bred to do. I am just looking for an answer, not for everyone to freak out.

Quote:Jeff ,

How do you see 2 confident yet dominant dogs establishing dominance between them ?

I am curious about that. I am not trying to be the end all be all in this. This is a discussion forum, and I am trying to discuss this. I have not been around two like that at once. I have had two dominant males that stayed on the opposite sides of the room. I don't let my dogs decide. I decide what goes on in my household. It has worked so far. I see what I see, and If I see it over and over again I try and use that pattern to establish a theory. If you can blow that theory out of the water fine, I will not be offended.