I personally am thinking about going for the "dog bites sleeve 1" title. I think if I start training for it now, I could be ready yesterday, or possibly last year. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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Jack has even proposed that with UKC's backing to make another SchH organization with sleeves and with the old rules - nothing watered down, but then again, how many dogs these days can do that?

Jesse,
First My comment is who cares how many can pass today on the old standards, that will be what separates the dogs who can from the dogs who pass in todays schutzhund world. Furthermore the old schutzhund ways are more than achievable, so setting up a program based on the old days is more than reasonable to be the standard. I certainly think it would gain more credibility than what's out there. I think starting schuthzund under the UKC and going back to the old school schutzhund would be a great thing for the GSD world in the US. I'm not into schutzhund for all the reasons that is today, but I could certainly respect some good old school schutzhund. I believe they would get alot of support. Hell, it would probably bring me out on the schutzhund field <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />, and that is like watching cows literally jump over the moon. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I am not here to get in a pissing contest about who's dogs, breeds or sports are better - yes the GSD is in a decline - is that why they are making titles easier? Are they making titles easier because of the lack of interest?

These are questions I don't have the answers for - everyone knows the Malinois is the dog of choice for sport and street work these days - they just have an unmatched drive - and for Jeff - you can't compare a ring sport to schutzhund - which you did (and compare gsd's to mals) - Ring is a prey sport, I like ring as well, I love how the decoy has the ability to take points from the handler team.

Anyways - your right, who cares about how many dogs can pass the old program or the new one or which dog registry is backing anything - but do you enjoy training your dog? I think so, and before you know it we won't have any rights to train our dogs (look at some of our european counterparts) and look how the numbers at big time venues are shrinking (or are you the type of person that likes to watch agility at the Bundesinger (spl?) - my point is, I train dogs to train them because I enjoy doing it - and the backing we have is continiously shrinking - if it means that I have to support a new sport by UKC - then so be it, because last time I checked - they are bringing in a new batch of people interested in dog training - yea so what, the lower end titles are temperment type titles or the 1 has 1 grip, I have seen some SchH titled dogs not get through the 1 - and also if you ever heard anything about the SDA deal, the PA and P1 are suppose to be there to draw the interest of new people (not just ring, psa, schH) and then the P2 and P3 are basically copies of ScH further titles - and the PD1 and PD2 are suppose to appeal some of your PSA people.

Many people have had their inputs on this from various organizations - I give them credit, what they are doing is they are getting support for the protection sports and getting more people involved -- I would like to think that even most skilled critics such as yourselves would step back and realize that for one moment - because without more help in this country - who do we have for support? The PSA crowd? (last time i checked, they aren't doing so well in the upper brass), the RING group (they have a strong following on the west coast, but scarce on the east), SchH? - yea so its been the oldest sport, but everytime I goto nationals they are always begging people to have your friends join and don't forget to renew your membership - so lets face it, we aren't in good shape to be smashing all the other organizations, hell - you chat on forums enough, you know that you will never win an arguement regarding (so and so's) dog is better or (this or that) sport is better...

You also mention the downfall to the GSD - the GSD is in trouble just like the Rott and the Dobes use to be - I say use to be - because there is barely anyone taking a chance on those breeds anymore (the last rott and doberman nationals had less then 10 dogs) - GSD nationals still pulls in a bunch of dogs - but how many deserve to be there? - how many gsd, dobe and rott kennels in germany have abandoned their breed for a different one?

So the point I am making is this - you guys are arguing about sports - dog sports at that - one doesn't prove anything vs the other, most sport dogs are just that - sport dogs - people get too wrapped up in their dogs or their pride and fail to realize - that didn't they take up sports as a hobby to do with their pets?

Also - when I talk about people abandoning the breeds - they are turning to the Mals - look at the numbers of dogs entered at the big international trials - and look at the breed numbers - I personally am not breed specific or like one more then the other, I like doing motivational training so yes, i would say the mals are easier to train (because I can use their drives) - and when picking a puppy from a litter, its sad to say that even the average malinois puppy is outperforming most of the other breeds...

There are still some really nice GSD's out there - but the people breeding and handling them are on a decline - which is going to put a spin on the breed as a whole just like the other working breeds have done.

Plus it doesn't help you have the show people in the mix (won't even get into that can of worms... lol)

being as I am noob to this forum - (had an account, just never posted on anything) - but how come I can't change my password? I have to keep resubmitting for a temp everytime I try to log in - and when i goto MY HOME - i change it but it doesn't save it

Sorry, SDA is part of the problem, not the solution.

It's just going to be another venue run by trainers that were not able to compete at a level where they could do well in an organized, established sport like SchH ( or PSA, or ASR...all sports that demand a lot more than the feeble requirements of SDA ), so they made up a weaker sport in which they can be the "Big fish in the little pond".

And you'll be seeing those titles on every sub-caliber dog in America, where they'll be used to con the unsuspecting buyer into thinking "whoa, look at all the titles on that stud! I gotta have a puppy from him!"

You can take crap and wrap it up in a pretty bow, but it's still crap.

Jesse,
I'm not sure what part of your post was a response to me. Not at all making this a pissing contest as no one here wants that and it's not productive, but if you read my posts about SDA I'm sitting on your side right now. So there isn't any need to be defensive with me. I think the current SDA protection program is mickey mouse, BUT I do stand behind it because it is a major organization getting behind a bite program. If they are open to that maybe they will be open to further develop the program, of which I am glad to hear you mention that they are. Most of my post was giving a thumbs up to Jack for as you mentioned looking into getting UKC to set up schutzhund under the old school schutzhund rules. I'm not going to fight UKC or bad mouth their attempt. As long as they don't fall into the good ole' AKC trap, and 6yrs from now like the other schutzhund organizations they take out the gate exercise because the gate is freakin some dogs out. But for now, I say UKC, rock on.

Quote:Ring is a prey sport, I like ring as well, I love how the decoy has the ability to take points from the handler team.

I love these comments. What do you think it matters that a dog is in prey? If there is a dog that could "only" be in prey, WOW! what a dog. No fear. Still think this is possible? If the dog is not afraid why would he be in defense? Do you really think there is only one drive going on during bitework?

Bottom line is this, prey or not when the dog bites it hurts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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You can take crap and wrap it up in a pretty bow, but it's still crap.

LMAO! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Will, I wonder what's going to be the topic of conversation at training this weekend? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jeff -

My comment was about ring being a prey sport - was in reference to you making a comment about "sports being a test" - and you made a ring reference - all sports have their flaws - and they are all trained scenarios so its basically which dog can muddle through it more then the next.

And it doesn't matter that the dog is in prey - the dog needs to be in prey to do the work - but I guess I don't need to explain that to ya - the sports aren't geared for the defensive aspects of the dog - or do you think that sports test a dogs defense vs its prey?