Hi Jenni, I responded to the other thread - but wanted to update you on Baron, his prey drive was always high at home (like for play) but at training he wasn't overly excited about the bite toy - but then after harnessing him to the tree and doing bite work with his bite pillow (making him bark for a bite) now he comes unglued and it also increased his bite-toy play drive. Did you ever try this with Caleb, I think it would make a difference. My sch trainer told me his drive was initially ok but not super high; you should see it now after working with him everynight for only 2-3 weeks on the harness and using his bite pillow.

I'm new to this discussion, so I apologize if this is repetitve - but Chet, I'm curious as to how much experience you have with DDR dogs and/or research to back up your comments? Also, if what you say is true about pure DDR dogs, I need to add that atleast with my breeder, she does a lot of crossing with DDR/Czech which makes for an absolutely fantastic working or family dog. And, I'm not too sure how many "pure DDR" dogs are really available these days anyway. But here's a reference link to quite a few schIII DDR dogs. http://www.vomdomburgerland.nl/eng_hond_nieuw.html

Hi Gail, I just read your post and I have a very high energy, high drive female that sounds a little like yours when you said " she has a minor problem that i think stems from her being taken out of SchH training (another issue i need to ask about elsewhere),which,paired with her high energy level,makes her look spooky or shy at times....not good for the public perception of service dogs."
This doesn't have to mean "bad nerves" as mentioned, my female was 2 yrs old when we got her 6 months ago, and she basically had run of the house, acreage, no socializing whatsoever, and apparently was allowed to chase the fence when bicycles went by - Sooooo, since we've had her we have been working on socializing skills, she's been thru obedience and is doing much much better; her nerves are fine but I she can appear spooked or shy but that's not what is - it's from lack of socializing. And she is awesome in sch training and is moving quickly thru it.

All I was saying is that the way she described her dog gave me the impression of bad nerves. I think of a dog with bad nerves as not being able to handle stress. I think stress comes in many different forms; not just from a correction or from a helper. Stress can come from a new situation, sounds, a person actions or environment. Dogs with good nerves and temperaments handle this well. A dog is aloof when he has very little interest in other people, a dog with good nerves and is aloof is confident, calm and has a good temperament/attitude but just does not care for attention from other people.

Jenni, you described aloofness as "the trait that you're saying is seen as a little spooked or shy seems to be fairly common in these lines. I have heard different theories about this, but some say that they're just more serious dogs by design (remember their purpose and duty) and that in turn makes them seem "aloof" to strangers.” This is not correct. If a dog gets spooked that is not a bad thing. If the dog recovers quickly and is no longer spooked that is a sign of good nerves. If it gets spooked and stays spooked and shy, those are not good nerves. I’m not trying to be argumentative or insult anyone or there dog. We all love our animals, but as people who work dogs in different areas, we need to honestly evaluate the dogs we have and train. We invest too much time and money into our dogs to try and make something work that is just not there.

I think if you re-read those posts you will see some things that do not make a lot of sense. This post is about DDR dogs as a good pet. I think they make a fine pet. Also, I said nothing about SD needing prey drive.

Tina, I have worked your dogs here in Tacoma. You make very bold claims about your dogs. So where are you doing schutzhund Now? I’m glad that you are doing PP with your dogs. It is much easier to do. Schutzhund requires lots of dedication and time. Who is your German trainer? I thought you were training with John? You seem to be a dog expert now. Good luck to you.

Oh, that Chet - sorry, I didnt' know your last name - I still plan on working Ali at Lynne's starting next week; John is going to be doing Baron on thursdays if got his equipment in - I haven't talked to him recently. I thought your claims were bold about DDR, not trying to argue; Baron is much more laid back than Ali, but you should see him working.. but he's only half DDR. So I wondered what pure DDR experience you had.. maybe it's true (for the most part) that the DDR aren't as drivey as the W.German or Czech - no, I'm definitley not an expert, or claiming to be, I only have personal experience of 12 years with my own gsds in PP training and obedience, not working on drive and schutzhund. I'm trying to absorb as much info as possible about the different lines. Just recently started researching the DDR and Czech lines. So any insight you have would be appreciated. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

...its funny that you mention autism-both our oldest son and I have the same form of autism,Asperger's Syndrome,and one of the things that our SDs do is assist with this,Aric's more than my dog. By having Anja with me,I have both a social conduit to other people and a kind of a buffer when things get too much for me.

About drives,I did the Volhard test on her a while back,and for what it is worth,these were her scores:
Prey = 0
Pack = 50
Defense - Fight = 10
Defense - Flight = 5

...so,yeah,she has low prey on that score-her original trainer said she was a ball freak,but I have never yet seen her play with one,she is unwilling to do anything with her mouth (one reason I posit the theory that something may have happened in her training). But she is insanely crazy about play with a laser pointer! That is how I found you can't tire her....I ran her full bore for about two hours one night,without thinking about what I was doing while visiting over the fence with a friend. So I think she has an ok prey drive-just totally under her control.

I agree with this post Chet. As I mentioned on a different post, it's hard to give advise on a message board - only relay our personal experiences. So I like what you said about being spooked and recovering or not recovering. I'm not an expert, but I do have experience in reading dogs. My German trainer was a past trainer in California, the old "jerk correction" method; works on strong dogs, but I've now since learned different methods; which by the way, I cured Ali of the going after bicycles with your advise on the dominant collar and hanging for a few seconds - thank you.

Chet-it's so hard to reply accurately all the time because if someone else has posted in between the post you're replying, you can't see it when you're replying <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. Thanks for clearing up what you were saying about aloofness <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I wasn't trying to say being spooked-looking was the same as aloofness. I was trying to say that I've heard both things about these lines. Not that aloofness was always the cause of these behaviors. I just wondered where you were coming from because it seemed like a generalization, and you DID say that you hadn't met a DDR dog with good prey drive. I wondered why that would be a good thing in Gail's situation. I wasn't saying that you said "service dogs should have prey drive". I should've been clearer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

It would be nice if you could review the entire thread when responding! We might not have to do all this back and forth to understand the point someone's trying to make <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Chet- If it seemed that I was "describing aloofness as...." I'm sorry. I wasn't meaning to "describe" aloofness this way. That's not how I'd describe aloof, anyway. I was just saying my particular dog is aloof; not saying that was the same thing going on with Gail's dog. I agree with a lot that you said, actually, just not the generalizing about DDRs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />