Interesting article Ed, thanks for writing it. A couple of points. I disagree with almost everything you've said about Ecollars but those disagreements have been covered in other discussions on your forum. We use the Ecollar in vastly different ways. It takes a big man to allow those who disagree with him do so in his own living room and I thank you for being a big man about our differences.

The following that I quote from the article is something that I've heard many times on many forums. When questioned about this "study" no one has ever been able to show a citation for its origin; not in any K-9 journal and not in any scientific journal. In trying to track it down it seems that it came from a statement made by a trainer at a seminar and she's never backed it up with a citation either. People have just assumed that it's true and repeated it so often that it's become accepted as true. Do you have a citation for it? I agree that chain collars will probably cause more damage than a pinch collar but I don't think that this "study" really exists.

"This has been proven through autopsies done in Germany on dogs that were trained their entire life with choke collars Vs dogs trained with prong collar."

And this bring up a question. Since both the chain collar and your "dominant dog collar" work identically, how is it that the dominant dog collar doesn't apply the "entire force of the correction . . . to this one spot" on the dog's neck and cause identical problems? I've always thought that the force of a chain collar was spread out around the dog's entire neck, rather than have it concentrated in just one spot. The bruising from the experiment you suggest (trying it on one's leg) will extend most of the way around the leg. I think that any damage that occurs does so because the force is concentrated in such a narrow area, the width of the chain. With a pinch collar the force is also spread out around the dog's neck but it's over an area that's 1/2" wide and it's not necessary to use anywhere near the same force to get a training effect with the pinch collar.

And just one final question. Throughout the article you use the word "stem" when referring to an Ecollar "stimulation." Everyone else that I know uses the word "stim" (as a derivative of the word "stimulation) when they make this reference. Is this a misspelling, are you doing something different or is this a regional thing?

The correctional technique I use, relating to the section "Pups and Corrections - the Beginning of Pack Behavior" involves rolling the pup on its back, making it stay in that position for some seconds, with eye contact and a firm tone. When you have an entire litter biting at your ankles, it can be pretty uncomfortable, and they seem to learn quickly this way with no chance of harm. Just make the body assume a submissive position, and the brain will follow.


ED'S COMMMENT BEING ADDED TO THIS POST:

Daryl - there is no question your method works (it's an ALPHA ROLL) but if you are raising working puppies this is crazy to do. I have bred over 350 litters and have never one time tried to take prey drive out of the litter. If you breed pets - well what can I say. It's certainly not something I would even do with pets.

There is a very fine line with working pups to keep the prey drive while at the same time teaching them to redirect from biting handlers to biting prey.

Lou - one of the reasons I wrote this article is because of the numerous (and I mean numerous posts) you have put on my web board about ESCAPE TRAINING with an e-collar. I disagree with every post you have made concerning Escape Training with e-collars. Its old school backward training.

There is only one place that ESCAPE TRAINING (Avoidance training is a better term) with a remote trainer should be used and thats with animal aggression and the scenarios I describe in the article under avoidance training.

Modern dog training is built on motivating a dog to want to work for you. When its done correctly the dog will try and figure out what you want so it can obtain its drive goal. People should see our little Corgi pup that Cindy is working with try and figure out what she wants her to do. You can see the wheels going in her head.

This method of training produces a dog that can think for himself. He THINKS and becomes a PROBLEM SOLVER.

Escape training produces a dog that is guided into the correct behavior because it wants to avoid the STIM (or stem).

Lou - I strongly recommend that you start your own web discussion forum on your own web site about escape training because I am going to step in and stop it on my forum. In my opinion its a dis-service to allow what I consider abusive training methods to be touted "as the correct way to use e-collars"

I don’t know what your point is on the choke collars. Did you not read the post I entered on finding someone that does not like you to jerk a choke that’s put around your thigh?

If it’s so important to you to hold a piece of paper in your hand about this study - write Bernhard Flinks. Ask him about it. He discusses it in every one of his seminars.

In regard to the dominant dog collar - Loudid you read what I said? It seems not !!!!!! It seems that you argue just for the love of arguing.

A dominant dog collar is not used like a choke collar is used in obedience training. In obedience training handlers give the dog a POP with the leash (the level determines by the temperament of the dog). This POP is what causes the damage. (Lou I assume you understand that a dog should get a POP rather than a TUG for a correction?)

With a dominant dog collar there is never a POP - it’s used to quickly lift the dogs feet off the ground when it shows unwarranted aggression. A dominant dog collar is used to take the air away from a dog. It’s not used to POP the dog with a correction.

Lou - if you dealt with many behavioral problems you would understand the difference here. On the vast majority of dogs that have been allowed to become dominant these collars only need to be used a few times before the dog figures out that the handler is someone to be taken seriously.

Obviously you have not seen the training DVD I did. Probably a waste of money for you – you are a little to close minded. In the DVD I explained that some people use STIM – some people use SHOCK – some people use STEM. It really does not matter what term one uses as long as its understood. It’s just like some people call these SHOCK COLLARS – some people call them E-Collars – some people call them REMOTE TRAINERS.

Well have been reading, looks like the prong, ecollar and whatever you can choke or hurt your dog with is popular here... I dont get it.
Are we talking about pups or already grown dogs with issues and messed up habits from previous owner?
I did not even know about the prong collar till this supposely great trainer in my country put it on my dog and when i saw what it did I told him..." one more time you put this on my dog I personally test it on your neck" I will never use it. And every time my dog did bite work on him I could see the hate comming out of his ears...
Am I unexperienced or what the heck? Maybe I have never gotten in to actually using it properly, but I have never had a need.
I think that each and every owner schould put it around their a** so they can relate.. maybe I am just uneducated.
Please dont take it wrong.. I am not saying that it is evil, byt it sure seams to me. It looks like somebody came up with that collar because they didnt know HOW...


Ed's comments edited in:

The point you miss is that every dog is different. If you have a soft temperament dog you dont need a prong. If you have a hard temperament dog you will be glad to have one. With that said - every training tool on the market can be abused. Dont blame to tool for the fool on ther end of the leash.

In the mean time I take offense at your smart A@# comment "looks like the prong, ecollar and whatever you can choke or hurt your dog with is popular here"

What an uterly stupid comment!!!!! I suggest you re-read the article. I suggest you also read what I said the reason for writing the article.

Well, although we've never put them around our a**, both my girlfriend and myself have put on properly adjusted prong collars and seen what it is like. Long story short, we did it because she was unsure about the collar and I just wanted to convince her it was not a medieveil torture device. She decided that she wouldnt do it unless I did it first. Anyway, it was more an experiment to see what a proper correction SHOULD feel like to the dog from this collar. I personally feel they are nicer than a choke (certainly being scruffed by a mouth full of teeth *something mom did when they were pups* is more naytural than having their airway partialy *or in some cases fully* blocked) and there are some dogs that absolutely need them. I don't reallt feel bad about it becuase a dog has a VERY short memory and is incapable of remembering at todays training session that yesterday it got pinched. Does it remember that it doesn't like what ahppenes when it doesnt sit on command? yes. Does it remember that its because I put a pinch collar on it at the beginning opf the sessiona nd then chose to use it 20 minutes into it? no. All in all, Im just sayong that in dog training (as in dog breeding, judging, heck, even grooming fancy poodle cuts) to each his own. Some methods work most of the time and most methods work some of the time. Every dog is differant and so is every owner. You can only makes decisions on what is best for your dog the same as everybody else. I respect the choice a dog owner makes reguarding his own dogs training and I expect the same courtesy from them reguarding my own dogs and my training. As an example, after our experiment, my girlfriend made the decision that the pinch collar was good for one of her dogs, uses it sometimes on the second and never on the third. I think she made responsible choices ireguarding each dog and thats all we can hope to do. I wish you the best of luck with your dog and I hope your trainer respects your decision and drops the subject.

Yikes, just read my own post anbd wanted to make one things ckear: I was talking about the improper use of choke collars being bad, not choke cpllars themselves and I certainly wasnt including ominant dog collars. I have two of Mr. Frawley's dominant dog collars and they have been lifesavers for controlling my dog aggressive dog as well as another trial members. We each thought we would never be able to take these dogs to group training untill getting these collars. Just wanted to clarify my point. I forgot one word and that nmade a huge differance!

Ian

Sounds reasonable... I've never used choke or prong nor electricity nothing.. I feel lucky.
Well But I also trained on daily bases so they remembered. I think. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Well Good luck to you too.. I never put down anybodys training system... I took me a while to develop my aproach and still learning. I just feel lucky that I have to only use two collar.. home one and out one.. leather choke, i never use.. I just like the option in "case". I think I am very calm person and for most people my dog seams boring.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> But I like it that way...

Martina,
I think you will find that Ed advocates the minimum amount of force necessary to communicate with the dog. The working dogs that many of us on this board train take a higher level of correction that your average family pet dog. We are also training to a higher level than what a family pet would be trained for. Take the time to explore all of Ed's articles and I think you will be surprised, the bulk of the training that most of us do is motivational training, giving corrections properly and in a fair timely manner that the dog can understand creates a framework for all of our interactions, the dog knows what is expected of him and is happier for it.

Hallo Jason. I trained SVV, SPS and personal Protection as well as Police dogs.. Building search and field search.. I Have never had just a family pet... well I did his name was ding dong and not quiet sure what it was.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
My first 5 years in the US i had to learn how to live here, I did not have time to train dogs... but some obedience for my friends.. Maybe my technique is old I will find out. I receantly purchased a pup and I will purchase another one Shortly from Slovakia... Just know those dogs, They have CZ/SVK/DDR working line.
I have no Idea what they will become, I am hoping one SAR and one SHutz-I just have to train myself first.. dont know shutz trials <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
My 3 mos pup is already following tha track 30 min old and maybe 10 meters long... no running and the other day I made a little curve-perfect following. This is going to be my SAR I hope.
I wil have to learn because I forgot a lot.
I just never ever used any force training..well not talking about spenking and raised voice... My 3 mos pup already knows NO and Dont... without any extra making him... and that little sh** tries. I love him


Ed's edited in comments:

This is not a thread about what dog we are going to get - its a thread about the article I wrote on the Theory of Corrections in Dog Training" - which from looking at your posts you need to study. Anyone who claims to train dogs the way you do has a lot to learn.

Just to add... I dont think that prong is bad... I just think that it can be done without it.. that is all.
Call me old school if you want. I think that it can be used on dogs and work just fine no harm done... I just chose not to.