 Re: Mal, aggression question.......
[Re: Aaron Crawford ]
#90537 - 11/27/2005 08:14 PM |
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I read some of your posts and correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you get that pup well under 8 weeks of age?
maybe the pup will give you a Mulligan. Start over with the hand feeding. I believe Van Camp recommend being above the dog when you hand feed him. Keep it light and throw some play in there. then move on to tossing high value treats into the bowl. Call him with a high value treat while he's eating and then pick up the bowl.
OR
Put his food in the crate and don't "F" with him. I wouldn't like it if my boss "fooled" around with my paycheck.
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Re: Mal, aggression question.......
[Re: Janice Jarman ]
#90538 - 11/27/2005 08:26 PM |
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Hi Aaron, sorry, but this doesn't make much sense to me:
>>And yes, wolves DO torment the others. They go to eat the kill and if the others come up they lash out at the others until he is done. Thus making the others wait until hes had his fill...<<
**The Alpha wolves do not torment the other wolves. They just eat first. When they are finished, the other wolves eat, and the Alpha wolves leave them alone.**
>>Do you see what I am saying? The alpha pack leader wolf isn't going to say" he I am pack leader and its ok if you want to eat beforte me today, but just for today ok? Thanks"...<<
**No, as the owner/handler/boss/human/alpha, you take care of that little bit of business by eating before you feed your dog. Then making them sit/stay before they can eat. Not by putting down a dish of food in front of a dog, putting them into a long stay and then doing a dance around them. Good grief**
It wasn't to be meant in a literal sense.
OK, for the tormenting part. Besides the use of a wrong word, torment, I and you are agreeing with me. I placed the wrong word into the post. I should have said something of beter taste.
BUT, but but. That's irrelevent. If the other wolves go up and try to eat when the alpha IS eating, its going to be a quick and ugly situation for the lower ranking animal. Let's say my dogs food is the kill. and he starts eating. well, if I hadn't started and he growls at me what does that say about his perspective of who is alpha and who is not?
I believe, and I have been wrong, that in his mind, he is alpha by snapping at the owner and the owner subsides and does nothing but baby the dog and give it extra treats condoning the behavior. I want this situation to be like every dog I have had over the many yrs. " I stick my hands in your food, you do nothing, and I pet you down and tell you how good you are and leave him be. I have NEVER had a dog behave like this. Never!
Going to the next qoute you did...
ok, where do I start. OK, maybe the time was exagerated. I put it as most of the Mals I have seen out here have behaved very well and at the age he is would sit and stay for 3 min no problem.
The only error I can see is where others are saying i was tormenting. I didn't think so and looked at it like people who train their dog to have a dog biscuit sit on his nose until they tell him he can have it.
What about this? The guy I bought my dog from had a male that was 1.5yrs oldf. His dog sat and stayed for 15min. So saying that the dog is too young and all that isn't really being accepted to quickly. Maybe you guys are right but from what i have seen are to totally different scenario's. He's been breeding/training Mals for 28yrs. I think he would have figured out by now what will and will not work.
Again, the only thing so far with ANYONE is that I tried to do obedience with his meal. That is my only error.
Is this correct?
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Re: Mal, aggression question.......
[Re: Glenn Wills ]
#90539 - 11/27/2005 08:40 PM |
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Quote from Aaron: And yes, wolves DO torment the others. END QUOTE:
Aaron your so far off base it's not funny anymore. Tracy and Cindy are totally correct! You are a total *EDIT* who is without a doubt a terrible example of how to care for and gain a dog's trust and respect. This nonsense that wolves torment each other is just ignorant physco babble and rambling on your part. I was going to stay out of this thread but your last post made me mad. I'm hoping that Ed will BAN you from ever posting again. People who think and act as you do, will always be counterproductive to what this board is all about. I feel sorry for your dog because I think I have a very good idea about his unfortunate fate.
Glenn http://www/czechdawgs.blogspot.com
Mod edit for language.
C'mom Glenn, you know better than that! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Will Rambeau
Moderator
and your point for putting your link up there? So does this mean your superior GSD who is and this is that posts EXACT words "BENJAMIN has been trained basic obedience, tracking and protection" cannot sit down for more than 1min as he is 10mo old?
I don't buy it. Again, all the nonsense you say I am guilty of is nonsense. And the name calling....you are quite character.
Again, the only thing I am guilty of is setting the food down and making him sit and stay. I honestly didn't think of that any differently than some moron placing a biscuit on the dogs nose and making him sit with it intil given the command to eat it. Putting a rawhide, beef shank bones, pigs ear, or a BOWL of dog food is no different to him. Food is what it is all considered as. So what is the difference? Biscuit on his nose or in front of him in a bowl?
So I guess in your eyes I am guilty b/c I put my hands in without giving him something extra and more tasty, and the time I had him sit appx 1-2min TOPS. Trust me I wasn't looking and starting right next to him for that long.
Wow, as I have stated, the word "torment" was misused. Other than that, yes, the alpha male will attack other wolves if they come and eat if he hasn't finished. He won't try to kill them in most cases but I guarantee a good bite is not unheard of....
Anything else you'd like to add or that I failed to mention?
Thanks.,....
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Re: Mal, aggression question.......
[Re: Glenn Wills ]
#90540 - 11/27/2005 08:45 PM |
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Quote from Aaron: And yes, wolves DO torment the others. END QUOTE:
Aaron your so far off base it's not funny anymore. Tracy and Cindy are totally correct! You are a total *EDIT* who is without a doubt a terrible example of how to care for and gain a dog's trust and respect. This nonsense that wolves torment each other is just ignorant physco babble and rambling on your part. I was going to stay out of this thread but your last post made me mad. I'm hoping that Ed will BAN you from ever posting again. People who think and act as you do, will always be counterproductive to what this board is all about. I feel sorry for your dog because I think I have a very good idea about his unfortunate fate.
Glenn http://www/czechdawgs.blogspot.com
Mod edit for language.
C'mom Glenn, you know better than that! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Will Rambeau
Moderator
Oh yes, and I would like to add one more thing for you.
You are wishing that I be banned for making a mistake? This is the reason you are not a moderator. I have been a moderator on other sites and you can't loose your cool b/c someone doesn't agree with you or is stating something in which they are wrong but is asking for help to be corrected...
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Re: Mal, aggression question.......
[Re: Randall Gore ]
#90541 - 11/27/2005 08:54 PM |
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Aaron,
While I agree with you and Sammy that the Alpha should be the undisputed Alpha. Part of the problem with your particular issue is that I believe you are dealing with "instinctual" behavior. By this I mean that in the wild, wolves are programmed to survive and in order to survive they must eat and fend off the advances of other pack members to eat. Yes, the Alpha may eat first, however if a subordinate is in a possession of a bone the Alpha will very rarely, if ever, attempt to take it. This does not affect his Alpha status, some things are just too sacred ("the bone") to impose on. I would evaluate your role as the Alpha in regards to your whole relationship with your dog rather than this one particular issue. I would say that based on your brief post you are no doubt the Alpha in your relationship.
Instinctual behavior can be a very difficult thing to change. I'm about to sound anthropomorphic, so forgive me but, I believe you can change the visible expression of the behavior but as to how the dog reacts inwardly I think will be impossible, if that makes sense. In other words your dog may not bite you, but the apprehension and distress the dog experiences may never stop.
The fact that your dog (especially a mal.) will hold a sit/stay for 3-5 mins. with his food there is impressive. I think if you press this issue it will escalate and for the remainder of the dog's life you will always have issues around meal time. I like someone's idea of approaching the bowl and throwing in something extra good for the dog, so that he associates your approach at meal times as something good. I would recommend picking your battles and fighting those that are worth fighting. Steven Lindsay has three volumes out on canine behavior (which I believe Ed sells). I would recommend vol. 2 which covers various types of canine aggression in great detail. Anyways just some food for thought.
One more thing, I have a border collie that is almost 13 yrs. old. She has had food issues her whole life (I've had her since she was 6.5 wks. old). I have corrected her (sharply) numerous times. However, even to this day if I reach for her while she is eating she will clamp her tail to her belly, ocassionally snarl and will run away from her food until I leave. I've managed to keep her from biting (through corrections), but I can tell she is miserable if I go near her while she is eating. If I could go back and do things differently I would, but I was younger and much less wiser. I've learned alot, but not nearly enough since then.
Randall
very good points here. even though your post count may not be as high as many of the veterans here your words were quite substantial in terms of its mass.
I appreciate it and will try not be be as strict esp. making mistakes while doing so.
One more thing.
I know this wasn't meant as humorous but I got a laugh about it. I thought to myself, " haha while we are on the topic of food " to your qoute "Anyways just some food for thought." Its sort of fit very appropriate for the post topics.
Anyhow, thanks...
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Re: Mal, aggression question.......
[Re: Dennis Jones ]
#90542 - 11/27/2005 08:58 PM |
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I read some of your posts and correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you get that pup well under 8 weeks of age?
maybe the pup will give you a Mulligan. Start over with the hand feeding. I believe Van Camp recommend being above the dog when you hand feed him. Keep it light and throw some play in there. then move on to tossing high value treats into the bowl. Call him with a high value treat while he's eating and then pick up the bowl.
OR
Put his food in the crate and don't "F" with him. I wouldn't like it if my boss "fooled" around with my paycheck.
actually if my check were messed with I wouldn't be a happy camper either.
and will definately look into the rest of what you had stated....
thx
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Re: Mal, aggression question.......
[Re: Aaron Crawford ]
#90543 - 11/27/2005 10:36 PM |
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I see your point. Explained nicely. But I mean, I am trying to be as realistic as possible here. What if something form the counter fell into his bowl and you need him to move so you can get it.
Does that mean that the dog will allow you to go inside the bowl only to expect something more flavorful or to be scratched, etc?
Do you see what I mean? Do I have this correct? The dog shouldn't move b/c you wish him to. He should do it b/c he believes he will gain something?
Maybe I am completely wrong as I have stated in a previous post " dogs are not and can't rationalize as people do".
At that point you should grab something safe and EXTREMELY tasty, yank the bowl but remain calm or even happy, do the switcharoo making sure your dog sees/smells the goody he's getting, and drop the bowl back down with a happy "good boy!" No need for giving him another command unless he growled when you yanked the bowl, then I would have him do another sit or a down, but just a brief one. I don't think correcting for a growl there would be good. Just keep things positive. A growl I'd say can be tolerated depending on the whole personality of the dog, but if he goes after your hand then it's another story. If you really want to teach that mid-meal interruptions are good, put down his bowl minus his favorite portion (raw example: a huge hunk of meat or a meaty backbone or whatnot), let him get into it, take the bowl but don't lift it too high, and then pick up the meat, let him see/sniff it, place in the bowl and put it back down.
The point is, you'd want to practice this, but not at EVERY mealtime, just enough so that the dog will at least tolerate necessary/accidental interference or even come to enjoy it (hey, I'd love interruptions if it meant free food!). You don't HAVE to give a goody if you must reach for the bowl, but trading is fair game. Anytime a bowl is taken, food should be noticeably increased upon return.
As someone has already said, an easier alternative is to feed the dog in the crate, maybe even in another room that can be closed off. That prevents any altercations and keeps things quiet. Some dogs are just anal about their mealtimes and being left alone!
But I have a question for you if you'd be so kind. Remember when we were kids yrs back and your parents assigned chores to all of us kids? And when we were 7yrs old-18yrs and our parents expected us to do it, without lip and to expect "nothing" by doping them? (someone added that the dogs mentality at 1yr is = to appx 8yrs old)
This is what I mean, isn't there going to be a time when the dog will do things for you b/c of loyal abilities and companionship and love inseatd of being almost like an employee only doing things for pay or obtaining something equivalent?
You see what I mean or did I lose you. Ask so I can clarify any opaque areas....
If I ever talked back to my parents, my head would have been felled off my shoulders. I respected them too much for that. I'd do stuff when they asked (eventually...), but if I was offered a bribe I'd do it that much faster- what kid doesn't jump at the offer of new toys? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
To reiterate with a neat, easy-to-understand reference, there is a difference between a fair and just leader who everyone follows out of trust, respect, and love (Luke Skywalker) and a leader who everyone follows because if they wouldn't they'd be dead by now (Darth Vader).
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Re: Mal, aggression question.......
[Re: Diana Matusik ]
#90544 - 11/27/2005 10:50 PM |
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and by the time he gets this down pat, his pupper is going to be about 20Lbs over wieght <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> oh well, Aaron needed a joging partner anyway <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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Re: Mal, aggression question.......
[Re: Diana Matusik ]
#90545 - 11/28/2005 06:21 AM |
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At that point you should grab something safe and EXTREMELY tasty, yank the bowl but remain calm or even happy, do the switcharoo making sure your dog sees/smells the goody he's getting, and drop the bowl back down with a happy "good boy!"
Diana,
Respectfully, my hunch is that the dog is too far along in protecting his dinner for this just yet. I wouldn't want to ever let this dog get to a point where he even felt a growl was necessary.
If this dog were in my care, I'd start with hand feeding it. Doesn't need to be one kibble at a time, but have two bowls, one on the counter and one on the floor. I'd ask the dog to sit, take a handful from the bowl on the counter and transfer it to the dog's bowl, releasing it to eat. When that is done, repeat the above steps until dinner is finished.
It doesn't need to be a battle, just crystal clear. Some people even advocate spitting on the food. That part is a little odd and controversial, but it certainly wouldn't hurt anything.
T
Tracy Roche
VA
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Re: Mal, aggression question.......
[Re: TracyRoche ]
#90546 - 11/28/2005 10:26 AM |
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I do agree with you, Tracy. My procedure would probably be if one started from the beginning or close to it. Your method is likely what must happen now!
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