My friend Carl Reif showed me an exersize to teach the dogs to wait until the last moment to come up. I will have to have him show me again, cause I taaded.

Of course legs suck. That is why they are put on there. I played soccer all but three years of my life at some level or another. These last few years of taking dogs on the legs has done more damage than the previous 36 or 37.

I don't want the weak dogs, so go ahead and put them on the upper body. The rest can go on the legs. MUUUUUUUHAAAAHAAAAAA.....MMMMUUUUUHAAAAAHHAAAAA! C'mon Chris!!! you can't just do the upper body dogs, you gotta destroy your knees with the leg dogs as well. Besides, don't think your getting off easy, my back is pretty muckled from the upper body dogs. Just you wait young man!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Don't forget to add to your evil decoy tricks the sissy upper body scoop. Esquive the initial, then go low and hold the arms in front like a sleeve. When pavlov runs in for the easy bite, pop up and scoop him off with the other arm rotating your upper body. Then, just before he actually lands, run straight at the dog with the stick coming down at his head right as his feet hit the ground. I love the high (runners) flyers!!! MMMMMMUUUUUUUHHAAAAAAAAHHAAAAAAAA <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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As off no pressure from the decoy?? How come that dogs from other programs, and this without exception, that come to try our training are run off the field. And lesser dogs from our program that are submitted to the same excercise/pressure aren't? If there weren't any pressure this wouldn't be the case.

again, i believe this is because of training. i think the proper term would be "perceived pressure". if you think any of those ring dogs actually perceives that leg bite decoy as a threat, i think you're kidding yourself. those dogs have seen the same stick hits, the same leg bites, etc and know the decoy is not going to hurt them. you take a strong upper body dog that was "run off" and train up the leg bites in the same manner that a ring dog was and i don't believe he would be "run off" the field. again, we're talking "sport" here. repetitive training.

This whole thread is interesting but many of the ideas why things are done in certain sports are way off base. Most are simply working towards points within the confines of system that the participant (handler) plays in.
To make such sweeping statements as GSD's can't do this and can't do that or all dogs in BR that bite arms are weaker than those that bite legs, and that the esquive lends some sort of special attribute to the FR is pretty much hogwash.
Since I've had the fortune to play around with dogs from FR, BR, SchH, KNPV, IPO I have certainly stopped making such comparisons.
The reason? I've seen dogs from German working lines that would have been superb in KNPV and BR. I've seen dogs in BR that would do anything you asked. I've watched frenchmen come look at BR dogs to buy to take back to compete in the FR and polcie from all over the world looking for the KNPV dog.
Any idea that because my GSD is of long term German lineage would not fare well in KNPV is laughable.
But YOU WILL NEVER see him or his lines outside the schutzhund world due to the people who have these animals. It is compliance with history that keeps the GSD working in GSD circles w/ virtually no cross over into other sports. particularly NVBK....it's not even FCI recognized and would be a dead end street for the production of working GSD's. If I have a great GSD it'll be shown in a GSD forum.
I once watched a superb KNPV dog shut down by a very good FR decoy. The KNPV dog's handler was spewing the rhetoric that I am reading on this thread. After being badgered enough the FR decoy agreed to the challenge. Now I know Daniel could stop virtually any dog he chose to stop from any back ground and he did very quickly. The regretable thing is that the dog was superb but taken out of his element and training. It was not a test of character for the dog and it was not a test of which format was better.
I have been impressed with the Malinois ability to criss cross between sports but I do believe that this is due to the the fact that the people that make up the Mal movement tend to be people that try new things. Mal's with IPO titles were unheard of 25 years ago.
The sports are quite different. Certainly the IPO system is inviting to a large range of dogs not simply the very powerful of dogs and this is reflected in the huge numbers of schutzhund, IPO, RCI, VPG, etc titles being earned all over compared to the relatively few KNPV, BR titles.
But lets look at the cream of the crop not the average competitor the dogs on top only and no one in any sport would be ashamed of owning and competing with those dogs. Every sport produces some superb animals. Just some sports are more inviting for the more average animal (and handler as well).
I've watched BR decoys that presented no threat (no attraction either) where the environment was the test, and FR decoys which were intense rabbits on the field, and IPO decoys that could put defense attraction to the dog from accross the field and KNPV decoys who stick a flying dog more often than not. But, I've also seen some pretty lousy dogs competing in BR, FR, and SchH, and dogs that could not handle a schutzhund drive with titles in KNPV, FR, BR, and SchH.

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I love ya Will, but I disagree that muzzle training is going to keep a decoy from getting away from the upper body dogs. Too much training for the arms, and not enough in the muzzle. The dogs initial conditioning for the bite from early on is the arm. By the time they get old enough to do muzzle work, that arm is pretty stuck in their head.

The big thing that I see here so often, is they will take a strong puppy, and train it for the bicep/crook of the elbow. To me this is really bad targeting. You get a quick decoy in FR and that dog is gonna lose a lot of points. He will hold that arm out, and esquive, esquive, esquive.

It takes less dog to do the upper body. If you never do the legs, you will not see this, and not every upper body dog is weak, just badly targeted <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Dang ring <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />sports makin me type.

And I still doubt I will see a GSD in the BR in my lifetime.

This has been a fun thread, and you make some valid points Kevin. I hate this medium for communication, as it is to slow and easy to leave out stuff.

I am not going to see a GSD in BR, and I do think the program is too hard for them. Sure we all have seen a dog that "could" do well in any disipline, but they didn't, and until they do, it means just about nothing.

I would like to see this happen with the GSD, no matter what you may think, I enjoy them much more than the spazzy Mals to hang out with. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The fact that the FR decoys are so fast, and can esquive dogs and basically shut them down DOES give them something a bit special, doesn't mean they all are special.

The movement of the dogs to the upper body is very rarely handler preference, and just about everyone I have talked to whose dog did ring and was upper body did so because the dog was uncomfortable on the legs, so yes weak dogs are upper body dogs in the ring sports, with a small exception that are handler preference. I know that we move the weak dogs off the legs in my ring club, and they do much better on the upper body where it is not so scary.

I think that NOW would be the time for the GSD to go and get titles in other sports than SCH more often. They made the sport less for some reason. I don't know why. People get the impression that I hate SCH. No, I mostly dislike that they rolled over and changed the rules cause someone said so. I also don't like the closemindedness that many people I knew had. It was a long time ago. I should also state to be fair, that there were some really great people, and I do miss training with them.

So to recap, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> GSD's can't do BR. I don't hate SCH. And the ring dogs that are upper body are usually the weak sisters, except maybe for handler preference.

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And I still doubt I will see a GSD in the BR in my lifetime.

Aww come on Jeff, even though I'm still young I'm sure given enough guidance and kennel accidents with the Malinois you'll live to see this happen... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

OK, devils advocate(like I am not always) Lets say you have a dog that is all that. Where are you going to find a club outside of belgium that does BR??? I think that there is one here in the states. ONE. What is the likelyhood that you will live nearby? I am sure there are GSD's capable, (3 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> but the odds are really against them competing in BR, and your odds of getting that dog are really high as well.

There's one not far from me. As a matter of fact, it's the only comprehensive training facility around. It's that or have someone come over and simply aggitate the dog in the backyard. Not! I have a bandog, does that mean we don't have a snowballs chance in heck? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Isn't that a fancy name for a pit mix????

No, it's a generic name for a cross bred mastiff <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

The reason I asked, remember, is a friend of mine trains in this style...and he just moved here and is interested in starting some sort of club. If he finds the right people that is. Theoretically speaking if he manages to get one off the ground, I'd like to participate with a shepherd. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />