Steve,
I think you have just seen poor examples of poor dogs. Again you paint every PSD with one brush is no different than me saying every Sch dog is a prey freak sport dog with no heart. I don't think it's true do you? I don't make general statements about Sch dogs although I've seen plenty that were junk.

I've also seen plenty of junk PSDs but I don't think your statements are very specific or apply to them all.

In fact most PSD bites tend to be during searches and not on run away suspects. Most times the person is passive and hidden. Dogs are used more for their nose than foor their feet and teeth.

Sorry Josh,

I can see you are going to disect everything I say. I will not confuse training ideas with theroy. Theroy is what makes your decisions on how to train. Training is the bag of hundreds of tricks.

If I can get up your way I will work the dogs.

This is boring me now!

Man 1 says "Your dog is a little insecure on the sleeve, hear him growling/barking/mouthing?"

Man 2 hears "Your dog has no balls and you have a small penis"

Grow up guys, just because a dog is insecure or shows fear does not mean he can't do his job. A good helper can improve your dogs confidence so that he gets respectable scores on the field. If he is a police dog and always goes after the bad guy and apprehends him successfully, then no issue.

The dog is not a bad dog, he does his job just fine, but he is still insecure! Sorry that's just the way it is. If you can't get past your ego and discuss the nature of your dogs and the dogs you train, you will never get the best out of them.

My dog never barks at the cat, he stands tense and stares, when the cat moves he chases and tries to bite, usually I can just about catch the collar at this time, lucky for my cat.

Barking is a learned behavior. It is not the product of a drive. If a puppy was raised in isolation and never received anything by barking, he would stop barking as soon as he started, if he ever even started. The drives are innate, part of the genetic make-up. Our puppy raised in total isolation would still have prey drive, but he wouldn't know how to use it, he would probably display some focus and he may move towards a prey object, but would he bark? Why? Prey drive includes the behaviors chase, catch, kill. Caston in 1993 did an experiment where he isolated male dogs for the first 10 months of their lives. On presentation of a bitch in heat, the dogs became excited but it was not directed towards the bitch. They still had that drive to reproduce, they never learned what to do with it.

Predisposition to Bark is just like predisposition to Hip Dysplasia, it is there or it isn't (in Basenji's there is no bark predisposition), but the environment shapes how it is expressed. If the dog is rewarded by barking, he will keep barking, but if he is not, he will stop barking, it doesn't matter what drive he is in.

Before you train, stroke your dog from head to tail and remove your ego from him!

When you look at what other people are saying, just for a moment, toss away your prejudices and what you've learned so far, open your mind and think.

Why is this so difficult to understand. A drive will motivate the dog to a number of actions. If a dog is barking while trying to get his prey, for whatever reason- learned or not, the motivation of the prey drive is what is driving his actions at the time. . .which include the barking.


If a dog never learns that barking will help him get the prey maybe he won't bark. That does not change the fact that dogs that have learned to bark are being motivated to bark by their prey drive.

Louise wrote: "Barking is a learned behavior. It is not the product of a drive."

If you are going to use drive theory at all then you have to conceide to the fact that some drive is motivating the actions of our dogs at almost every minute of their lives. Drive is a base motivator. . .it is what drives the dog to action, whatever action it is taking.

There are hardwired behaviors that one can immediately associate with a drive, like biting, but the drive is still the force that is motivating the dog to a number of actions to catch prey. Barking would be included, even if a learned behavior. BTW, biting, running, chasing could easily be considered learned behaviors as well.


Puppies kept in crates their whole lives don't know how to walk. . .seen it, and it is sad as hell.

VanCamp,

The problem is that we believe when a dog is in 100% natural prey he does not bark.

A lot of you guys believe that just because a dog barks to motivate the non moving sleeve, he is in prey. The problem is we do not believe he is in a natural prey drive while barking for that prey. You believe it is easy because you see it as just one drive and we do not. Remember, prey moves and escaves the preditor.

I believe the original post was refering to the time just before the dog bites, when he is in his highest prey motivator, the sleeve. He does not bark to get the sleeve as he is flying through the air. Why? Because he is in a higher level of prey and the defense is lower and to be honest, this action of biting is more natural for the dog. Not the barking for sleeve idea.

We are looking at genetics, not something that is trained. For instance, I throw the ball and my dog runs after the ball and does not bark - higher prey. I restrain my dog and he barks for the ball, ball is not moving at this time, - less prey some stress some social. They are not one in the same. And I already no this is not 100% of the dogs 100% of the time.

But look at genetics and the purest of the drives before we make it simple. Once this is clearer, whether I be right or wrong, that all the other is simple.

I learned in school the first day, understand the terms and the rest is easy.

food for some, desert for others

 Quote:

Originally posted by Dennis Hasley:

 Quote:

Originally posted by Renee Felknor:

 Quote:

Originally posted by Richard Cannon:
The best and fastest way to get a prey bite with my BRT bitch is to do a handler defense. Do a runaway and she will stand and wave bye bye and watch them go. It is taking some time to correct this issue in the breed.

And how would you correct this issue?

Selective breeding for the breed to increase the innate prey drive base and prey building exercises known to increase prey drive for the particular dog.
...
Putting the dog away and not playing when they want to play the most and small chase games like Ball-on-the-wall and so on.
...
So it can be done it is just a lot of work and though I learned alot about how to build prey drive it is best to go with selection unless you are a dog training freak. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dennis, thank you very much for your input. As far as selective breeding is concerned, we are past that, what's done is done and now one has to deal with what's on the plate. If that means I'm a training freak, so be it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .

Your advice on building prey drive with a ball is fine, but not an issue with a dog in question. a) Building ball drive when there was none is my specialty and b) the dog's ball drive is OFF THE WALL. I'm beginning to think that that could be the problem...

I'm not asking for an evaluation of my dog as I pretty much know where we stand. Let us assume that this is her only quirk, just as RC described:
"The best and fastest way to get a prey bite with my BRT bitch is to do a handler defense. Do a runaway and she will stand and wave bye bye and watch them go.", except the dog is of GSD persuasion. I'm looking for a practical solution.

If you have something to add to RC's advice or have a different method, your advice will be greatly appreciated. Thank you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .

What exactly is pure prey, or high prey, or highest prey motivator?


Anyway, to stay within the drive theory framework. . .let me say this to help the discussion. Maybe this is what you are meaning to say??


Randall, you are saying that dogs do not bark in prey drive alone. There is drive interaction going on the second that the dog starts barking? Is that safe to say? You believe that there is some social drive (pack drive) or some defense drive that spurs the dog to bark. A dog will not bark while only in prey drive? A dog will only bark when there is some drive interaction?


If you want to say it like that then at least you are using the correct terminology. I disagree with that statement, but at least we can now talk about what actually is going on and not about the terminology, right??


I think a dog will bark while in prey drive alone. Here is why I think that. There are times when there is no motivation present other than prey drive. There is no stress, there is no social aspect, and the dog is just frustrated because he can't reach the prey. Barking at that point is being motivated by the dogs prey drive alone.


I also think a dog will bark while in a lot of other drives and by the tone of the bark and the body language of the dog you can take a pretty good guess what drive the dog is working in. Barking or whatever.