Chris,

If you don't want to do AKC WDS that is your decision, but
the AKC is the big player in dogsports in the US. Ignoring
the obvious is cutting off your nose to spite your face?
As far as Working Dobermanns. Come out to Denver on September 27th for the Schutzhund trial at the DPCA National. You'll see working Dobermanns.
In fact, if you're ever in Colorado shoot me an email.
You can work mine. Sleeve or suit, sport or "real life"

Thomas,
You and I, I get along and at times have good conversation so I'm not trying to fight with you or piss in your corn flakes, just saying what my assessment has been with a breed I grew up on. However, I do challenge you to list the dobermans that have competed in America in anything that puts real pressure on a dog in a reality way that displays the dogs fight drive (if any), committment to the fight, courage during the fight, solid nerves and dominance during a fight. I have expressed my displeasure for the way schutzhund has turned in the later years or decade but in reality I do believe schutzhund has some worth when trained and judged properly for it's intended purpose. With that said, schutzhund IMO doesn't cut it as a true test for the Doberman to redeem it'self. We all can think of a dog we have seen that was a poor example of dog that should not have reached highs in schutzhund, yet through superior training the dog(s) end up on the podium at the Nationals and even the world sometimes.

Hey, I believe that any amount of exposure to the protection sport provides legitimacy in the US to it. If AKC puts their stamp on it this is a good thing.
But, like their other endeavors the AKC is interested in people more than dogs. Participation is the whole thing with AKC. So we can expect a sport that revolves around people not dogs.
Much like the field trials where UKC is still the place to look for the top end field dogs there will become strata among the IPO type sports here in the US.
I think this is fine. Most folks that have dogs with a long list of AKC champions and obedience titles listed with the ancestors names couldn't even begin the work. At least this will be a benchmark for them to attain.
Among people looking for hunting dogs they can find a few "dual champions" out there and they often will work OK for their needs but if the die hard hunter is looking for a top end hunting dog most know....avoid the AKC stuff and find breedings that revolve around the hunting.
Information is the best thing out there and this will bring more people into the fold.

Kevin, Agreed. Can you say hunting Weimaraner, Irish Setter, Cocker Spaniel, even Golden Retriever? Its an oxymoron unfortunately, for the most part(95% or so). If AKC can pull this off, more power to em, but they still have no breeding requirements nor do the breed clubs, thats the issue. Incidentally, all 8 or the ESPN 2 dogs featured on the latest Retriever series were HRC Hunt test dogs. Never seen an AKC trial, but told they dont even allow camo clothing there for handlers, and still call it a hunt test?

Hunt test vs Field Trial.
This is what AKC working sport vs Internationally recognized working sports like IPO/SchH and MR will be.
OK by me. Keeps the lightweights out of my circle <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Kevin, Agreed. Can you say hunting Weimaraner, Irish Setter, Cocker Spaniel, even Golden Retriever? Its an oxymoron unfortunately, for the most part(95% or so). If AKC can pull this off, more power to em, but they still have no breeding requirements nor do the breed clubs, thats the issue. Incidentally, all 8 or the ESPN 2 dogs featured on the latest Retriever series were HRC Hunt test dogs. Never seen an AKC trial, but told they dont even allow camo clothing there for handlers, and still call it a hunt test?

you wrote:

Hunt test vs Field Trial.
This is what AKC working sport vs Internationally recognized working sports like IPO/SchH and MR will be.
OK by me. Keeps the lightweights out of my circle

>Hey Kevin

>The approved AKC WDS program is Schutzhund/IPO following
>IPO rules. In fact the first pilot trials (DPCA/GSDCA)
>in 03 led to dual titles IPO from UDC/WDA? and WDM from
>AKC. The WDM "titles" granted at the 03 pilot trials
>are supposed to be recognized now that the WDS program is
>approved.

Regards
Thomas Barriano

HI Chris,

There are a couple of Dobermanns doing serious work in PSA, ASR, Mondio and French Ring. I wish there were more, but hopefully now that AKC has put their "stamp of approval"
on protection training. All protection sports (including ASR :-) will be more popular?
RE Schutzhund: Is it the be all and end all, of what a
protection breed should be doing? Of course not, its just
one of a number of different things to do. The reality is
Schutzhund is the best known and most readily available.

Thomas,
Do you know which dogs have titled in PSA and how far they got? Also, I don't know of any that have titled in ASR. We are definatly having some come and try, and all of us around ASR always comment on how we would like to see a good dobe come across the field, because most of us grew up or were involved in the doberman back in it's kick aarse day, so there is no hating on the dobe at all, just stating my assessment of what I see as reality for the dobey, I think they are a working breed my kids will read about in some dog training history book. Again, is this what I want to see from my first breed of dog ever, HELL NO but thats where I think it has gone.

PS: I'm sorry I did say "competed", I should have said titled. Thomas, I'm praying you make me a believer in this and prove me wrong because dobes were my 1st love in the dogs.

Thomas,
The difficulty and respectability in working dog sports is less in the rules as they are written and more in the application and intent of the Judges presiding.
I know the rules look like IPO, but unless the judges rise to the occasion then it means nothing.
I cannot see a flegling program doing the opposite what too many IPO/schH organizations are doing.. and making their judging more effective at weeding out the lesser animals. Just not a AKC approach to their programs.

 Quote:

>Hey Kevin

>The approved AKC WDS program is Schutzhund/IPO following
>IPO rules. In fact the first pilot trials (DPCA/GSDCA)
>in 03 led to dual titles IPO from UDC/WDA? and WDM from
>AKC. The WDM "titles" granted at the 03 pilot trials
>are supposed to be recognized now that the WDS program is
>approved.

So far, the judges used at the WDA events have been SV judges, or judges approved by the SV.

If they stick with that, at least until AKC gets knowledgeable judges (read: approved by the FCI-VDH-SV), then I don't see much of a problem.

The hitch is that the knowledgeable and skilled people will have to step up to make it work.