Mike,
First, with the exception of carrots those plants have an extremely low % of weight as digestible carbohydrate and therefore would be a horrible choice if the goal is to increase the energy density of the diet. Higher volume of feed will reduce the efficiency of digestion and absorption of many nutrients. Second, the only reason to include carbohydrates in the diet are a) Energy, b) to manufacture precursors (DNA, RNA, inositol, etc.) or c) to feed gut flora. If the goal is to increase carbohydrate absorption in an animal, you would want to use a highly available polysaccharide (just pure dextrose can cause a decrease in overall feed intake via several signalling pathways). The only plant listed in your response with a significant amount of available starch is the carrot. The starch in carrot is found as partly as amylose and mainly as amylopectin. Amylose is composed of glucose subumits linked by alpha 1,4 linkages, amylopectin are amylose chains cross-linked by alpha 1,6 linkages. These molecules are 100% digestible by animals. Amylose and amylopectin are the forms of starch in both corn and rice. While the length of glucose chains and the frequency of cross-linking can vary between plant species as well as among varieties, they are all degraded by the same digestive enzymes.
3) Here are two textbooks you may want to consult prior to discussions of metabolism:
Biochemistry, by Stryer
Nutritional Biochemistry, by Brody

Mike... You might want to look into who you are arguing with.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Chad, I find your dialogue with Mike S. quite delightful. While checking the internet for the books you recommended, I stumbled upon this volume offered by amazon.com at a surprisingly affordable price of $.02 including shipping. It’s called “I Know Everything”, by Mike Sanchez. I strongly recommend that you read it—it will clear all your misconceptions.

OK, well the test results are in from the vet..and looks like : I WAS WRONG!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Well folks, looks like all the hopeful belief in the world can't change mother nature, and in fact Bella does have a pancreatic insufficiency behind the weight loss..( ok, I'm bracing myself for all of the I told you so's!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

The good news is that all that is necessary is the additive of enzymes immediately prior to her meals and all will be well.

I was so floored because this dog had no usual symptoms (such as loose stool, dull coat, excessive shedding, stool eating) except for the recent weight loss, which in and of itself was enough to be alarming....I am very happy that now there was an explanation pinpointed and a way to reverse the weight loss and she will be happy and even healthier from now on!!

According to the vet if she had stayed a family dog it might have taken a few years for her to show more apparent signs of the insufficiency. The vet credited Bella's good diet to be the reason why she has gone all this time without anyone suspecting there was any abnormality.( and her having always been at an reasonable weight )

The vet also assured her handler that this doesn't affect Bella's ability to work in any way, she will just be able to get more out of her food now with the addition of the enzymes to her diet.

Wow, I still am amazed that all this time I never had a clue that she was having difficulty of any type with digestion!!! She was pretty much like any other dog, except perhaps that too much raw chicken at once would give her the runs, but I never made a connection between that and her pancreas!!

So the good news is that not only have I learned something new about the dog I raised and thought I knew so well( <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) and she'll be fine, but additionally I've learned some vital information on feeding a dog that is putting out an exceptional amount of energy for whatever reason!

Bella's handler is continuing to add the protien and fat to her diet as suggested, it was helping her and will now do even more now that she will be getting the enzymes!

So, Thanks for all of the feedback I got from ALL of you, I love this board because I learn so much here!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Dr. Chad, I'm not disagreeing with you on all of that. Carrots ARE a "part" of my dog's diet. Like I said, the link I posted is an example from this site, not exactly mine. Question...As far as carb sources, do you think wolves in the wild would be better off eating corn & rice vs. digested plant matter which mother nature has given them? I'm just trying to understand your insight on corn & rice. My theory: A carnivore's body is not designed to digest what they wouldn't find in the wild.

Deanna, we're not arguing, it's a discussion board <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Someone has to get Renee flared up, might as well be me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jeannette,

So glad to hear that Bella’s problem is not life-threatening. I have an 11-yr old male with severe pancreatic deficiency. He’s been on Pancrezyme since 2. His original vet couldn’t diagnose the problem, even though his weight was down to low 70s (his normal weight is 95-100 lbs). The only symptom he had was bulky stools. I realized what his problem was when the hot dogs I used for tracking started coming out of him in the same form and shape as they went in. Took him to Dr. Link (I’m sure a lot of GSD owners in WI & ILL know who Dr. Link is). He didn’t even run the tests, just took one look at the dog and gave us a 2-week supply of Pancrezyme. A week later he was gaining weight. He is as functional as any other dog, the only problems is that Pancrezyme (or any other brand of ground pig pancreas) is quite expensive.

Mike,

No hard feelings, I hope. You remind me of my son (also Mike), a freshman in college, probably not much younger than you are. Bright kid, one problem—knows everything... We can all count our blessings that he’s not into dogs, otherwise he would be telling all of us where to go and what to do. He would have that Bark & Bite controversy licked in no time. Peace? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Renee! I'm relieved now that my shock has been absorbed( ok, well truthfully, I'm still reeling from the shock in some ways... I feel a little blindsided, hard to describe really....)!! As for the expense, I know that her handler loves her and she is so awesome in her work, it is a small price to pay to keep her in good health!!
I know a few people who had their pets on Pancreazyme and there only complaint was the cost too.

Does anyone know if this is a genetic problem? Or does it just show up randomly??
Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It's autosomal recessive and generally genetic unless the dog had a major attack of pancreatitis causing hospitalization immediately prior. What was the TLI score?


Can you PM me please. Thanks.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Sanchez:
Question...As far as carb sources, do you think wolves in the wild would be better off eating corn & rice vs. digested plant matter which mother nature has given them? I'm just trying to understand your insight on corn & rice. My theory: A carnivore's body is not designed to digest what they wouldn't find in the wild.

As much as I hate the "dogs in the wild" analogies...even wolves in the wild produce the enzymes needed to break down the starch in plants (sucrase, amylase, isomaltase). The original discussion began with the suggestion of feeding higher levels of carbs to a very active animal in order to help maintain body weight/condition. I think there should be enough explaination already as to why carbs are not the best solution in this case. I then wanted to correct your assertion that the carbs from corn and rice are not digestible. The starch (not fiber) is virtually completely digestible from both of these sources, and if the goal is to increase the carbs in a diet without decreasing the energy density of the diet these sources are a better choice than the vegtables you listed. It is in no way my assertion that dogs need high levels of carbohydrate in their diet.

Has anyone with a dog suffering from pancreatic insufficiency tried the supplementation of pure amino acids and fatty acids to the diet?

Chad, what would be some examples of pure amino acids and fatty acids?