http://lowchensaustralia.com/articles/bestdog.htm
I'll bet something like that happened. One day, one dog's handler posed the dog in an exaggerated, stretched out manner and the dog added some more "oomph" to the pose, it probably caught the eye of the judge, it won big, and people bred to this dog. They showed their dogs in this exaggerated manner, and more judges showed favor. More dogs were bred for this stretched out appearance as it apparently was what won the day, more judges liked this, and the feedback loop was now in full swing.

Probably the same thing with the roach. It's the same thing with the ultrafine head of the collie or the football head of the bull terrier.

http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm

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ETA: Let's talk about how we can make it BETTER!! (warning - you might get a "sales pitch" about the Junior Handler progam I'm passionate about!)

I want to hear the sales pitch! (You can PM it to me <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

Also, Sandy Moore - the trickle down effect makes sense to me. I've seen that happen with a breed I was involved with. One of the breeders was actually teaching judging seminars and using her own dogs as examples. I won't name names, it's a small community...but I definitely don't believe a breeder should be giving judging seminars and using only her own dogs as examples!

Beth, please do say more. I think we can have a good discussion about an important subject. Seeing pics of GSDs through the decades, from their origin to date, it's obvious the extreme change in the back (with some breeders) happened in the last 3 decades or so. Having owned and been around GSDs in the 50's and 60's, I can say the roach/hump back and tucked in hindquarters was not around then. When I saw the first ones, I was alarmed. It's not a functional "design", as Linda Shaw on her website talks about. And I haven't seen such a drastic change in the back in any other breed, so it upsets me that my beloved breed is the one chosen for such a design flaw. I don't believe any breeder anywhere has a right to change the skeletal structure to such an extreme, moving away from the standard.

We need to get back to the original standard for the breed, as put forth by Stephanitz when he formed the SV. And truly it's not just outward conformation or just working ability, or just temperament, or just intelligence but needs to be all these things. Otherwise it falls short of the standard because the standard and Stephanitz addresses all of it.

Here is a site that compares in chart form different clubs' standard for the GSD; includes CKC, AKC, UKC, KC, and FCI. Very interesting reading the comparisons. No "real" opposing views that I could see.
GSD Standard Comparison Chart

Hi Sandy. I guess I'm on a roll here - LOL I'm in "packing and camper preparation procrastination mode." (we're heading to St. Louis tomorrow am - and I put the "Pro" in Procrastination!)

The big breeders breed to what the judges are rewarding (and the public buys that - often like me, not knowing any better at the start). So a base line problem relates to how the judges are being "judged" by their respective organizations (i.e. SV) and how those judges are interpretting the standards.

I have only presented dogs in WDA and UScA events under SV judges, so can't speak of any other judges through other organizations.

Judges have a tough job. They are here by invitation. Whether spoken or unspoken, I'm sure many of them feel some pressure to be "kind" to the host club, or to a big breeder supporting an event, etc. So what can us little people do to influence this? I like to find out as much as I can about a given judge's reputation. I will go out of my way to support events where the judge has a reputation that I deem to be fair and impartial. One example coming to mind is Herr Dieter Oeser. At a show and breed survey this summer, I know for a fact that he avoided watching any practice sessions - protection or ring work. He did not look at the catalog prior to judging any events or classes. He did not want to know anything about a dogs pedigree or ownership or breeder. He took clear and active steps to stay unbiased.

He was also very thorough and fair in his critiques of both working line and show line dogs. I often get the feeling that anything that is *not* black and red automatically goes to the back (or automatically is set up for a KKL2) and that's that. I don't like that.

I don't personally care whether a judge "likes my type of dog" or not. I care that they are taking their role seriously, avoiding the many possible biases, and giving a straight up critique.

Even as little people, we can spread the word when we believe a judge holds to these principles. Let others know about these judges so they can make a point to give more support to club events using these kinds of judges.

That's just one idea...

Sorry for all this long posting. I'm sure it will cure somebody's insomnia. I should write a book about my first 2 years in this part of the dog world.

Beth

Geez, and I haven't even gotten to the part about when I think SchH titles are meaningful v. meaningless (IMO).....

Great posts, Beth! Thanks for weighing in. It's nice to see some judges try to stay fair to the whole crowd and not just focusing on a dog or breeder. I think that favoritism happens a LOT in AKC ring, from what I hear.

SchH titles are meaningful if they are well earned under a fair judge and a challenging helper. They aren't the only determinating factor nor should they be, but a properly executed test and brutally honest working and judging is good. I hear the routines are dumbed down a lot sometimes. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Personally, I want to get into ASR and if I were choosing between an ASR 2 dog and a SchH III dog, I think I'd take the former! Given the choice between an untitled dog that's tested for and showing a balance between the drives, good with the handler yet civil and a SchH III dog that's focused on equipment and equipment only, again I'd take the former, so far, anyway. If I ever get lucky enough to have a dog like that I hope I don't regret it! <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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http://lowchensaustralia.com/articles/bestdog.htm
I'll bet something like that happened....

The article on that site is a great one and the author Richard G. (“Rick&rdquo Beauchamp says so many things that are expressed so well and just feel at least a couple have to be quoted here for those who may not read the article in its entirety. Namely " Being right is a lonely place in today’s dog game. It’s conforming that has obviously become more important. In truth, you’ll have scores of friends as a judge, and probably as many wins if you’re an exhibitor, if you learn to conform, but who of those who really know their breed want to conform to what they know in their heart is wrong? I know that at times it takes great courage to acknowledge what is right, but especially in your own breed or breeds--who will if you don’t?"

And this quote: "We mustn’t forget that if dogs of average or questionable type receive all the acknowledgment, it is also they who set the unwritten standard - the standard to which the novice breeds and the inexperienced judge judges."

I urge people to read the full article. He also talks about the AKC's role in diminishing a breed (my words). The AKC has helped in creating the "unwritten standard". They need to get in line with and conform to the written standard for all breeds.

Just try to take a beautiful level, straight back GSD with every structural perfection and perfect trotting gait according to the WRITTEN standard into an AKC show and it's assured that dog will fall by the wayside. He won't even be considered. It's a dang crime. The AKC needs to start being held accountable for going by the written standards it professes to go by.

After watching the major conformation dog shows for the last many years, I keep waiting to see the perfect GSD, as I only watch for that reason alone, to see if the perfect GSD even makes it to the majors. Never have I seen one of those glorious dogs, the beauty of a true GSD, even try out, much less make it through the ranks. All I see is inferior conformation year after year.

Thanks for posting the site, Diana.