Well,

There may be a glimmer of hope. I met some show breeders at a dog show. Nice people. They had just bred their first litter. They were DISGUSTED with the current look of the GSD. They were going for the 50's look of the dog. (We are talking about looks that is why I didn't bring temperament, working ability et cetera up.)

Have any of you (that own working dogs) tried entering your dogs in the show ring? I mean, if enough working dogs show up there could be a revolution! : ) Or we could vote Ed in as president of GSDCA... That would solve the problem. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Carolyn, are you talking abut an SV or AKC type show? At least with an SV type show, dogs have working titles (unfortunately, in the US, there is a class for non working adults) & the rings are large enough that you can actually see the dogs true gait. Even so, there is still a gigantic difference between SV conf type dogs & working type dogs. If you are talking about AKC, who wants to waste time on a silly beauty pageant! Who wants to have a champion A.S.S.?

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It didn't take many years for there to be a huge gap between working BC's & showline fluffball BC's.

A clarification here - for working bred dogs BC refers to Border Collie. In show bred dogs, BC stands for Barbie Collie <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

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It seems an alarming number of people want a dog that looks like a shepherd, but acts like a golden.

I had to chuckle when I saw this as I've also heard the "ideal" AKC BC refered to as a "golden in a tux" in both looks and personality.

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It'll be a sad, sad day when an AKC border collie won't know what to do with sheep.

That thought doesn't really bother me. I just wish they would close the stud books on the BC and make a clean break. There are plenty of BC folks committed to perserving the real deal - without the "help" of the AKC. Sigh.

FWIW, here is one of my (purebred) working Border Collies.

Susan,

I went to an AKC show. I know most people feel it would be a waste of time. However, (I may be naive in thinking) if more working dogs show up (even if they don't win) the general public might learn something.

I haven't been to an SV show yet, but I know the dogs have to do more than run in a ring.

I have been to a schutzhund trial and that was very educational. I feel if the general public would see these dogs performing the tasks they were mean to, it would be a WHOLE different ball game
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Now, if I could only see those shepherds herd my life would be complete. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thats the thing. the working GSD is NOT the dog for the general public, nor should it ever be. The general public does not have the time nor inclination to handle these types of dogs. Most people have no clue what it takes to raise these dogs properly, I don't want our breed to ever become "popular". As it is, it seems hollywood is currently latching on to something called Giant White Shepherd. You watch, what happens to an already screwed up breed thanks to hollywoods' help! If most uniformed people went to a schutzhund trial, they would scream bloody murder in public about "attack training". No thanks, leave them on the AKC level where they belong. Much better to change the name to ASS, let the general public have these pretty fluff balls & be done with it.

I agree. I would leave the general public with their pets--no one in their right mind would combine them to our working lines anyway, which is all good, I keep my dogs, they keep theirs. What worries me is when working folks start to cater to 'pet' people and intentionally breed dogs with "lower" drives and softer temperament...then it becomes difficult to distinguish them from each other.

Other than watering down the dogs like Kristine mentioned, another problem w/"working" dog breeders selling inexperienced people these dogs as pets is the fact that many lines take so long to mature. I've seen some (DDR particularly) that are so late to mature that these people mistake maturity for a sudden bahavior problem, when really, the problem was that they had no idea what they were getting into and therefore didn't put a good foundation on the dog. Many of these dogs are dominant, and the average person doesn't recognize early signs of dominance. Then the dog begins to show some aggression (like it's genetically predisposed to <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> and they think that all of a sudden their dog has changed. Noooo, your dog is maturing. You didn't put any control on it until now, and now you're in a war you may not be able to win. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I "knew" what I was getting into with my first working line GSD, but I'd be lying if I said I expected all of the issues I've had. I stay on top of him and try to keep a step ahead of him at all times. He is a constant challenge that many people in a different situation would not deem worthwhile. People always seem to think you're exaggerating when you try to explain the difference between a pet and your dog. They mistake a controlled dog for a docile dog. They find me cruel for not allowing him on the bed; they would be absolutely terrified to see his "serious" side or the dominance that precludes him from having full run of the house and furniture. They think all dogs just sleep when you're not home <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. How many of us have dogs that we've seen sleep?!? <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Sorry to rant, but I just get sick to my stomach every time I hear someone who doesn't have a clue say they want "a dog like that." I think about what happens to the dog when it's out of control a year and a half later. How many of our dogs would pass a temperament test to be adopted out of a shelter? <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Sadly, I don't think there's any good solution to the dilution of this breed by organizations like the AKC, except to segregate as much as possible. The few truly good breeders need to be extra diligent in their efforts to place dogs in WORKING homes. Selling the uninformed person a working GSD is nothing short of irresponsible. Of course there's a learning curve, since none of us were born knowlegeable, but there has to be at least a commitment on the buyer's part to keep this dog a working dog, and it's the breeders' responsibility to enforce this. Sorry to further digress...

Well,

I disagree. Many people go to dog shows to look and see the different breed of dogs. What better way to find out that a working GSD is NOT the dog for you, than speaking to someone who owns one. Someone who can tell you about the dogs drives, its intelligence and the amount of exercise and stimulation said dog needs.

I am aware that when any breed of dog is subject to a lot of exposure (via the media) the breed is ruined by unscrupulous breeders et cetera. I will give Hollywood credit in that they are trying discourage people from buying a dog when they see it on tv. (The movie that comes to mind is "101 Dalmations" with Glenn Close. They had a statement BEFORE the movie started regarding this issue.)

In the long run, responsible people will make responsible choices. Irresponsible people will still end up purchasing and dumping the dog.

I see nothing wrong with educating the general public as to what the GSD is meant to be. What the GSD in the correct hands with the correct amount of care and exercise is like. What a GSD is like when its potential is being harnessed and developed.

Remember ignorance is bliss. Education is the key. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

A working GSD belongs in the hands of someone who will work it, period. The public wants an ASS & that is what they shuld have. Working GSD's don't belong in AKC beauty pageants. Yes that's just great the movie hada disclaimer; but it didn't stop people from going out & buying dalmations because they liked the dog in the movie. Unfortuntately, most people don't take dogs very seriously, they just want a pet for the family. Nothing wrong with that, except a working GSD is miserable if it doesn't have a job. If you talk to most AKC breeders, they will be happy to tell you their breed isn't for everyone. Strange thing is, that doesn't stop them from watering down their breed so they can sell to everyone. It boils down to one thing: $$$$$ You have to understand, American type breeders have invested everything to get the dog where it is today. They don't want their dogs to have a working dog temperment. They are proud of it & see no reason to change. The judges are cut from the same cloth. It is their game, thier ball, & it is not going to change just because some working line dogs are entered. You can't change something if the vast majority of their membership is content with the way things are.

This is my first working line GSD too, and it threw me for a jolt. I got what was supposed to be a "mediocre" dog from his litter--one with just enough drives not to drive me insane and teach me. I learned it just doesn't work that way. The suckiest pup in a litter can turn out to be a hellraiser. I can see how badly my dog can turn out with if he's raised by someone who doesn't have a clue and relies on, say, obedience schools for guidance. He's just not a pet.

The breeder who sold him to me, as well, is probably one of the most knowledgeable breeders I've ever known. And yet still he turned out more than all of us bargained for. Which is not a bad thing, but genetics doesn't just work that way.

And how many people are going to "believe" you when you say they can't handle a certain type of dog? We've all heard of well-bred working lines somehow ending up in shelters. One of my friend, upon seeing my puppy when he was flat and kinda dead, wanted one and said, "How hard can he be?" Well, he learned months and months later when he saw the dog's true nature rise up. I've had people confused about why I don't let him run around in dog parks or get touched by strangers, because he looks so docile sitting and grinning beside me. Well he is docile--to a certain degree, as a true German Shepherd is.

I believe that the general public does not need or want what a "true" German Shepherd is. The kind of dog that's always keeping you on your toes and will outthink you at every step of the way. It sounds fun, and it can be, but it's not as easy as it sounds. So I think it's safer that people who want pets stick with those designed for that so the "working" German Shepherds aren't muddled or messed up any more.