connie: yep, i made it to #4 with both dogs. it was "succesful", even with critters around, i never needed to reel them in. however, - and perhaps where i went wrong was that i connected the long line too much with the obedience - as soon as i even dropped the line, it was like they knew i had no method of correction.

ruby comes every time - it's just gotten delayed lately. i'm not sure if you guys subscribe to the theory of them "pushing boundaries to see what they're allowed to do", but it sure seems like what she's doing now. i dunno, maybe she doesn't really respect my position in the pack (which would be a completely different issue to training "come"), it really seems like she does in other situations.

destiny, well, i went over that in a previous post. i don't want to fill up this board with the same crap over and over (and believe me, i am capable of that!) . i will just say that unfortunately she's already learned that when the leash is off, the recall is optional. it seems to have been remedied now, i am currently not using the paintgun at all, just plenty of positive reinforcement every time they do it successfully like i said earlier, i'm secretly hoping the need for a correction doesn't arise over the next couple of months, i'm not working on anything new - i just wanted them to recall correctly. everything else can wait till i have the proper equipment.

Could I add something to your recall experience?

In addition to rewarding when the dog complies with the recall, you might want to call the dog often for every good thing. This gives you more reinforcement of the "recall means good stuff" experience for the dog.

That is, call the dog with your usual recall command for meals, for walks, for petting, for a game of fetch, for a ride in the car -- for everything the dog loves.

When you say that the dropping of the long line cues one dog that she no longer needs to comply, that says to me (a little) that the dog still isn't equating the recall with good stuff -- better stuff than the rest of the yard.

Maybe you can spend a few days on really upping the recall ante, making every recall the trigger for something excellent.

Not only does this strengthen the recall -- it also strengthens the bond between you (font of all good things) and the dog.

P.S. I do correct. But I first give all I've got to making the basic obedience commands a very "up" and good experience. This is a strong basis, for me, when it comes to distraction proofing. And since you don't have the eCollar yet, might as well see where it takes you!

So...... the dog might see the recall as an excellent thing rather than something she doesn't "have to" obey when the pesky line is gone.

 Quote: connie sutherland

Could I add something to your recall experience?

In addition to rewarding when the dog complies with the recall, you might want to call the dog often for every good thing. This gives you more reinforcement of the "recall means good stuff" experience for the dog.

That is, call the dog with your usual recall command for meals, for walks, for petting, for a game of fetch, for a ride in the car -- for everything the dog loves.

When you say that the dropping of the long line cues one dog that she no longer needs to comply, that says to me (a little) that the dog still isn't equating the recall with good stuff -- better stuff than the rest of the yard.

Maybe you can spend a few days on really upping the recall ante, making every recall the trigger for something excellent.

Not only does this strengthen the recall -- it also strengthens the bond between you (font of all good things) and the dog.

P.S. I do correct. But I first give all I've got to making the basic obedience commands a very "up" and good experience. This is a strong basis, for me, when it comes to distraction proofing. And since you don't have the eCollar yet, might as well see where it takes you!

So...... the dog might see the recall as an excellent thing rather than something she doesn't "have to" obey when the pesky line is gone.

That is the best, most detailed description on how to make a recall better and quicker. I had never thought about incorporating all those different things to just the recall. I'm excited, think I'll go work on recalls!

Thanks, Michael. I learn all the time (starting with the Leerburg DVD #302) that the more I can connect a command with good stuff, the better and faster the command is incorporated.

Today I had a little experience in this vein, in fact.

I have a recent rescue who was chained outside for his 7-8 years and really had no socializing -- certainly no training.

His obedience is getting there.

Today an interesting dog was passing by and Oliver thought he would rather watch the interesting dog go by instead of coming inside when I called him. I almsot reeled him in, but decided instead to change my voice a little (upbeat) and lean down in petting/playing position. Oliver changed his mind right away and came to me on his own for a session of stroking and playing.

I'm not saying that you have to do this --- or that it's even desirable when you need that dog to come and come now. What I AM saying is that what we did reinforced the willing recall under (mild) distraction, in a situation where I would be able to enforce it if needed ... but didn't have to.

Of course it probably would not have been sufficient if Oliver had been in full pursuit of a squirrel, but then I still would've had the line. If I didn't have reinforcement (line, eCollar), I would not have called the dog if I had any doubt at all that he would come. That is, I would not have called him under distraction unless I had the ability to reinforce it OR had already proofed the command 100% under distraction.

All this (I believe) makes it all the easier to proof the comand under real distraction.

Every day I find more and more how little I need to correct (which again, I do when necessary) when I've used a lot of motivation in the instruction phase.

It's fun all around.

yep, it's fantastic advice. i'd already started with some of it.. yesterday and today when it was time for a car ride, i let them out and released them to go potty (no peeing in the car!), then i recall them while i'm standing at the back of the car.

they also come and sit for food, as well as any other time i want them i make sure it's a good thing waiting for them when they get to me.

i'll be sure to take the other ideas on board.

 Quote: Jamie Fraser

... yesterday and today when it was time for a car ride, i let them out and released them to go potty (no peeing in the car!), then i recall them while i'm standing at the back of the car.

they also come and sit for food, as well as any other time i want them i make sure it's a good thing waiting for them when they get to me. ...

Wow, Jamie! You are really a fast learner; I'm thinking you might be a real dog trainer at heart and that you're just uncovering it now!

hehe, well.. i more or less always did that, only difference being that this is the first time destiny's been able to do it off-leash!

also this evening, i took my last hot dog, and i worked on them together with recalls. the first one was a bit sluggish, but after the first treat, the speed gradually increased. i think i'm going to go through a few packs of hotdogs just working on this. i thought i was done with this, save corrections, but apparently they're still progressing!

from the start my position has always been that i had far more to learn than my dogs!

 Quote: Jamie Fraser

.... this is the first time destiny's been able to do it off-leash! ...

I suspect she's always been able to do it off-leash.

I suspect she was called to be corrected ... as opposed to called for good stuff.

It's excellent that you are fixing what your relative did wrong.

Aren't dogs amazing in how they will adapt to the new regimen? Much better than us......

Good job!

 Quote: Jamie Fraser

... i think i'm going to go through a few packs of hotdogs just working on this. i thought i was done with this, save corrections, but apparently they're still progressing! ...

Then when you have a nice recall, you can start weaning off the treats. There's a rule of thirty, but for some commands I use a rule of one hundred.

Then I start treating 90% of the time, say, being careful that I'm doing it randomly (because dogs are pretty darned slick at figuring out a pattern).

Then I slowly work down to random treats. I also might reduce the treat's value as the command gets more solid, using the excellent treat once in a while and medium treats the other times. (Excellent treats are very good at the beginning, in the first instruction phase, I think.)

Soon the dog is getting praise and a pat more often than a food treat.

jamie you got grea dvices from all ithink especlly connies advices.
ijust want to add one more idea than ileave you with my lame english, il hope it will best explain what imantchend earlier with the prey drive.
it sound you have two high naturlly prey drive dogs.
the distractions of your dogs seems to based on prey destractions.
ithink with full approval with connie and the other saying ithink you should get your dog prey drive on items you can controll e.g ball, tug, puppyroll etc... than condition/ increase the condition to thos items and their hunt with you as apack leader.
than youl gain five main goals:
1.your dogs will know apositive way to unload they prey drive.
2.you can condition the catch of the new "prey" to recall.
3.you will increase your state as apack leader.
4.you will increase the conection between you and your dogs.

there many ways you can achive that iwill advice on search games involving search of aball \ atoy\ certain item or even kinds of materials like doing with explossives and drugs but the most basic and easyest are the search of aball you will find many excellant ways to start deateild in this website and iwill love to help you out if youl need...
the certain kind of search game ibeen thinking you should try to atchive is the open area search with direction from the handler ("left, right, frword, come etc..) that lead to the finding of the ball that way you will not just tunnel your dog prey drive you will also increse hes driveabilty / trainabilty and recall.
when it will be imprint well when your dog will wish to sutisfy hes prey he will know he can turn to you. ovcourse you can and should imprint "come" with aretrive games... ovcourse that this is not direct approach to the issue and could not bee use as the only soulotion but it is awholeing suplimantle (hope ispell it right) to thos great approches offerd you by connie and the others, and yes ithink you whould probably be need acorection tools on the way in one stage or the other. but ido recomanded e collars than the others.
thats my openion.
connie, guys what do you think?