like I said, what do I know? It just seems that a German Shepherd should be a German Shepherd, period. And Al, I actually don't have an ideal dog in mind, tbat is why I am here trying to learn WHY there is a difference between what once was just a German Shepherd that now has become some kind of scientific cocktail. I have stated it once and I will state it again, I am not anyone who knows anything about anything. All I'm saying is it doesn't make sense that A breed of dog has gotten so divided. That's all. It may be perfect logic to all of you but to me it makes no sense. Nor does it have to, I guess.

Actually, I know what you mean Robbin. Before I seriously started researching getting a pup I didn't realized there were two types of GSDs. When I was younger, I just thought there was a German Shepherd and that was that. From everything I've read, I really think they should be separate breeds to end the confusion.

Just my opinion...but go working line unless you want to show your dog. Lots of strong reasons why, but you've already heard them.

And like Will said, you're pretty much only going to get working-line people on this site. Pretty biased (but with good reason IMO )

 Quote: jennifer ruzsa

I personally think the ACD's in general are a smarter, more intuitive breed than sport-bred GSD's anyway, since there are NO GSD's still bred for herding. See, herding requires so much from the dog; skill, drive, and obedience. Arguably, so does SchH... But (and here's where the difference is) in FARM WORK the dog is not only allowed but EXPECTED to think and act on their own. In SchH that costs you points. I much prefer a thinking dog, just personally.

Really?? Being a GSD lover, I take exception to that. And being a dog lover, I don't agree with putting down any breed of dog. But I will match the accomplishments of the GSD breed to any breed of dog, namely:

Seeing Eye Dog (the first breed to be used and still being used)
Hearing Dog (for the deaf)
Herding (yes, herding, and they still do)
Search and Rescue (including Avalanche Rescue Dog)
War Dog (Military Dog)
Police Dog
Border Patrol
Personal Protection Dog
Guard Dog
Tracking
Schutzhund
Ring Sport
Agility
Loyal and loving pets and protectors of children

Did I leave anything out? Any other breed out there match that? Other breeds may be able to do some of those things, but no other breed has done ALL of those things. Your comment on "prefering a 'thinking' dog" is unfounded and not based on any knowledge of the GSD breed at all. In order for a breed of dog to be able to do all of the above, it has to be extremely intelligent and extremely intuitive and extremely flexible and versatile. The GSD is all of those things, and much much more. There is no more versatile and able breed than the GSD.

 Quote: Sandy Moore

There is no more versatile and able breed than the GSD.

True, true! WOOT!!

Hi Robbin,
I'm a little nervous about posting but here goes..
IMO I think that if you wanted to start out in the sport it would be to your advantage to find a good GSD. Myself I'm a Riesenschnauzer owner... yeah I LOVE MY BREED.. but LOL I'll reccommend a GSD for a first working dog. I have seen all the other breeds that have been listed and all are fun in thier own way to train but still they are so different, not easy to aquire and sometimes a bit too much dog for a person starting out. It would be a good to go with the breed most common. More people know about the GSD, more people have trained them and more people are available within your neighborhood area rather than a vacinity that is clear across the country or continent if you should happen to need support. I know there are plenty of super breeders out there in the working GSD that you can find a well balanced dog. Another suggestion would be to aquire an older dog already started in training or possibly titled dog to get your feet wet in the training and trialing stuff.
Just my thoughts
Michelle
http://www.myrivercottage.com

PS: I love ACD's

I agree with you Amber ,that making a potential perp. go else where by just appearence of a dog is what most of us will ever need. If a confrontation does arrive I would want a sound trained GSD or Mal there to trust mine and my families life with. At least enough to where I could get to the guns if not carrying at the time.

 Quote: sandy moore

 Quote: jennifer ruzsa

I personally think the ACD's in general are a smarter, more intuitive breed than sport-bred GSD's anyway, since there are NO GSD's still bred for herding. See, herding requires so much from the dog; skill, drive, and obedience. Arguably, so does SchH... But (and here's where the difference is) in FARM WORK the dog is not only allowed but EXPECTED to think and act on their own. In SchH that costs you points. I much prefer a thinking dog, just personally.

Really?? Being a GSD lover, I take exception to that. And being a dog lover, I don't agree with putting down any breed of dog. But I will match the accomplishments of the GSD breed to any breed of dog, namely:

Seeing Eye Dog (the first breed to be used and still being used)
Hearing Dog (for the deaf)
Herding (yes, herding, and they still do)
Search and Rescue (including Avalanche Rescue Dog)
War Dog (Military Dog)
Police Dog
Border Patrol
Personal Protection Dog
Guard Dog
Tracking
Schutzhund
Ring Sport
Agility
Loyal and loving pets and protectors of children

Did I leave anything out? Any other breed out there match that? Other breeds may be able to do some of those things, but no other breed has done ALL of those things. Your comment on "prefering a 'thinking' dog" is unfounded and not based on any knowledge of the GSD breed at all. In order for a breed of dog to be able to do all of the above, it has to be extremely intelligent and extremely intuitive and extremely flexible and versatile. The GSD is all of those things, and much much more. There is no more versatile and able breed than the GSD.

I've worked with GSD's and mals among other breeds. For my personal dogs, I chose ACD's. To each their own. It's why there are so many different breeds to choose from. Something for each of us!

The original poster was asking for breeds other than GSD's for protection work. The ACD was a recommendation I made, and it was fair.

Happy holidays!

Edited to Add:

If you can direct me to just ONE working ranch that uses GSD's to work stock EXCLUSIVELY (i.e. not chasing along after a couple border collies, LOL) then I'd be very interested in that. When I say "herding" I mean ranch work I do not mean herding trials only. As I said in a previous post, herding trials TEST the stock, they don't DEFINE the stock. As far as I'm concerned the only real herding breeds left are BC's, ACD's, and Kelpies. Ranchers are now crossing these breeds because the gene pool of good herding dogs keeps getting smaller. But anyway, if you can show me one working ranch that uses GSD's I'd LOVE to see those dogs. I'd be extremely interested in their structure, my guess is they'd be more malinois-looking than typical GSD-looking, and closer to the old-style working GSD.

 Quote: robbinmann

Call me an idiot, call me a novice, call me an inexperienced, know nothing jack!@#. Here's my opinion of the matter. Instead of everyone fighting about which is better...show dogs or working lines, why doesn't everyone start intentionally breeding the dogs together so that the breed will go back to the original value that it was intended by Max what's his name. There is nothing wrong with a dog that looks good and adheres to the conformation standards and that has the ability to work. Why all the fuss? This should be a united front not a divided one. All those that say they are on one side of the coin or the other aren't necessarily doing the breed any favors. Why can't we all just get along!!!!! Okay, I'm done. Seems to me those that are attempting to breed show lines that can work are the ones that should be applauded. The original german shepherd that I rememnber as a kid wasn't a sable or a black, it was a black and red and they were great dogs. The breeders are the one's responsible for creating the chasm. They should be ashamed of tbemselves. But hey that's just my "OUTSIDERS, KNOW NOTHING, opinion.

Often times crossing show line to working line can result in getting the BAD traits from both dogs. I definately do not want a show-looking GSD with the mind and drives of a working GSD -- it would break down and not do the work it longed to do.

We have the same issue of working vs. show in my breed (English Springer Spaniels) so I identify with this argument. The field ESS are 30lbs, no feathering, lots of white markings, short legs, round bodies and rounded muzzles. The show ESS are 45-50lbs, dripping with feathering, lots of black or liver with hardly any spots/ticking, and are very square in build everywhere. Fortunately some breeders -have- started working towards what we call a "dual purpose" dog by breeding the larger, blockier members of the "field" area with good working ability with smaller, not as blocky members of the "show" area with good temperaments and perhaps a bit of working ability. If you cross an awesome, ideal show dog to an awesome, ideal field dog, you will probably get some pretty gangly looking dogs. You've gotta start with the dogs that incorporate a lot of the traits you want in your finished product. (For example, the German show-line dogs would probably be what GSD people aimed for, just with working-dog temperaments and less focus on the roach back.) Imports have helped significantly because Springers in Sweden and England who are appreciated in the show ring are also excellent hunters. (Right now the breeder I am working with has a champion ESS bitch with her senior hunter title (along with rally, obedience, and agility titles) and has even imported a stud dog from Sweden to finish in the states. She is really devoted to breeding a true dual-purpose dog!)

Long story short, I am hoping that perhaps if we have success in Springers with dual purpose dogs, enthusiasts of other breeds will take note and try to recreate it. It's a damn, damn shame what most herding and sporting breeds have become. The only sporting breed I can think of that consistently has top-winning show dogs with field titles are Vizslas (probably because there's no coat to contend with). The problem is, you need to convince the breeders, owners, judges, kennel clubs -- everyone -- that there is a true -benefit- to 'fixing' the breed. In Springers, we are looking at two different breeds being created in the next, say, 50 or 60 years if we don't do something.

Extreme field type ESS: http://www.ess4field.com/Flash_standing_Utah.jpg
Extreme show type ESS: http://www.dog-breeds.net/EngSpringSpanO1rr.JPG
Example of overseas ESS, with tail: http://www.devrolijkeviervoeters.org/images/springerspaniel10.jpg