show doesn't mean the dog is horrible at work, not at all. I believe the view also depends on the breed.

Saint Bernards can be great at both show and work(drafting). The saints which are good at show are usually the individuals being bred.

Malamutes on the other hand really dont matter at show, but how much the dog can pull. With Malamutes you want to breed a dog which is the strongest of the bunch and most hardy.

I'd tell anyone who tells you show dogs aren't work dogs to shove it. Do you own research on your selected breed. Nobody knows every breed, and I believe the example of the two breeds above prove so. Just like veterinarians, they don't know every dog or how the dog is supposed to look, they only focus on medicine.

So do you're own research on what the breed is 1) supposed to do(work, kickme, bird dog, etc) and 2) what constitutes a dog to be bred?(show, work, or else?)

Thank you! I would kiss u if I could!

Anyone that thinks show line GSD's are on the same level as working line is delusional. Are there showdogs that can work? Yes, but not at the percentages of working lines. I have a friend that 2 times a year looks for dogs suitable for dual purpose police work. He mainly gets his dogs from Slovakia,Czech Republic and the Netherlands. In the last 2 years, he has bought 30 plus dogs. He picked 2 show line GSD from a kennel in Slovakia.

I watched the 2 show line being work because it has been years since I've seen a Black and Red GSD with good drives and bite work. Those 2 dogs were the first strictly show lines he has purchased in 10 years. After watching them and comparing to the Mal's and working line GSD their work was average.

The only difference that concerned me was pure physical ability. The show lines didn't have the speed,agility or explosion of the Mals or working line GSD. There are others on this list with more experience with actual working dogs than myself. When you talk to them they will tell you I don't care what a dog looks like as long as they are healthy and will do the work.

Backyard breeders and show hounds have destroyed working breeds in this Country. Try to find a working Doberman,Rottie or GSD here then go to Europe. You will see a big difference.

Heres the thing...this is my first time with a full bred gsd. I have small children. I have other animals. I am a novice when it comes to training beyond regular obedience. With that kind of resume do you really think a high drive, high prey dog is what's best for me? I understand the passion that everyone here has for working dogs. I think after reading for hours a day on end that I understand why they are so passionate. There is no doubt that there is a rift between show/working line dogs. Still, I believe that this being my first dog, that a dog that is a little lower in drive should be my first attempt. There are many people out there that believe that a good dog, be it black, red, green or purple can be trained to work. Especially those that are from Europe. Can working dogs rip the skin off your body with one full grip bite? Sure they can! Is that what I am looking for? Not really. I want an animal that is protective and can be trained to do things on command for this purpose. A good bite to scare the pee outa a perp would do just fine for me. Does he have to be the kind of dog that has to be kenneled 24/7 because he has so much prey drive? NO. I want a family dog that can be trained to be protective. Will I compete with the dog? NO. Will I do Schutzhund training? MMMM...the jury is still out on that one. Most of what I have read says that all these working dogs that do schutzund wouldn't bite a person without a sleeve on, so what's the point? Honestly, I'm still gathering research on this aspect. I do think it would be enjoyable for the dog and me, I will have to continue getting opinions to that end. Will I show the dog? NO. Now, do you all still feel that I require a high drive, high prey animal that is probably going to make me give up motherhood in order to keep the peace in my home? There has to be a balance here. I can't believe that any of the professionals in this forum would want a dog like that to go to waste with someone like me that hasn't a clue. Can I learn?? Sure I can and I am! Do I want to learn on such a dog. I have to say, the whole thing intimidates the crap outa me. Do I feel more comfortable learning on a dog that is driven but not a ticking time bomb, YES! Will I feel the same when it comes to get my second dog? Maybe not, most likely not, considering everything that I have read. The point remains I am a beginner. I think that keeps getting lost in all the shuffle. Seems everytime I ask a question about something it gets turned into another subject that people end up arguing about. Everyone is talking about dogs that have no other purpose in life but to work. I think that having a dog live out it's life waiting to be let out of a kennel in order to do sch work is sad for the animal. I might understand it if all of them were training for police work but few of them are. What most here consider work is nothing but sport for man. I haven't read a single post about working a gsd to herd, which is, as I understand it, what a gsd was bred for. All of a sudden the term 'work' means biting a sleeve all day. Would some of these breeders suggest a high prey dog for assistance with the blind? Or how about therapy work? To me, that would be ridiculous. It makes sense (now) to me that each dog be picked upon it's ability to do the job it is intended for. No matter the color. It would be like saying that every black man is lazy and can't work and all white men are better. Each is an individual and has its very own temperament and drive, isn't this so? It can't be as black and white as all that. (azfireangel braces herself for the backlash coming)

 Quote: RobbinMann

Heres the thing...this is my first time with a full bred gsd. I have small children. I have other animals. I am a novice when it comes to training beyond regular obedience. I want a family dog that can be trained to be protective. The point remains I am a beginner. I think that keeps getting lost in all the shuffle.

Here's my 2 cents:

I agree with what another poster said in that you want to look at working lines, but for a lower-drive animal. You're much more likely to find a long-lived, healthier animal & one which has good nerves, since those qualities are important in a working animal, no matter the type of work involved.

I'm also with the group that says don't rule out the German showlines, especially if you're dealing with a breeder that thinks health & temperament are important as well as the conformation. Beth is a good resource there, since she does both conformation & Sch. Another poster said earlier that the German showlines are probably the middle-ground that you're looking for.

Good luck & don't let all this overwhelm you

No backlash from me! When I was looking for a new dog early this year, I specified "a moderate drive dog from working lines", because I didn't feel I had the time to devote to Schutzhund training, but I wanted a dog I could have some fun with - I had in mind agility and obedience. I didn't want to spend all my time figuring out how to motivate the dog, but also didn't want a dog that would go nuts if it didn't have a job to do 24/7. I wasn't really concerned with training for PPD because I'd just lost a really sweet GSD who scared the crap out of people just by being big and serious looking. For me, that was the level of PPD I wanted.

The reason I wanted a working line dog is that, aside from hating the look of the show lines (American or German), I felt a moderate drive dog from working lines would have the character and athletic ability I was looking for. Not all puppies from a litter are equal. Some are going to have more or less drive than others. Not all will be the hard-hitting, restless type. But I felt that even the "rejects" are apt to be more motivated, more sensible and physically capable of doing a wider variety of tasks than the "best" of a show line litter. (And better looking.)

I think the serious working dog people will tell you that to have a serious PPD, you need a really high drive dog, so you may not be able to train a moderate drive dog for true PP. But, do you really need it? How likely are you to be in a situation where your dog's looks aren't enough to scare someone off? And yes, I know bad things can happen to anyone. Would it be enough if your dog was trained just to bark on command? Somewhere - I can't remember if it was on this site or maybe Eden & Ney - I recall a great quote to the effect of "If someone will come at you through a barking GSD, you don't need to send your dog to bite, you need to shoot them!"

Okay, so what happened to me? I fell in love with a beautiful black and tan puppy from working lines. He turned out to have fantastic drive and I got suckered (by a very nice lady) into joining the Schutzhund club, and we're having a blast. It is so much fun training a dog who's so easy to motivate. But despite this guy's borderline fanatic prey drive, he is great with kids, cats, other dogs and people (who aren't wearing a sleeve). He spends most of the day hanging out at home with me while I work in my home office. So don't think a working line dog doesn't have an OFF switch. I'm sure some don't, but many do. The problem with the show line dogs is they aren't likely to have much of an ON switch.

I hope this reassures you a little. If you find a good working line breeder who listens to your needs, they should be able to find a dog with the right temperament for you.

Thanks ladies for understanding where I am coming from. I was starting to feel like I caused a riot and couldn't get out of the middle of it. lol! In spite of all the confusion I am still very glad to have found this site and the network of support that everyone gives each other here. I will be looking (very soon) for lots of advice on training a little pup. My biggest challenge being not to gush all over him like the mom that I am. I still need to establish pack dominance. How can you look at a little face like that and not go completely ga ga?

You're welcome. I think getting a pup for the first time is like being pregnant for the first time but just do your research, listen to the wise old women who have been through it all before, relax & go with the flow!

Again, I wish you the best of luck.

 Quote: RobbinMann

Backyard breeders and show hounds have destroyed working breeds in this Country. Try to find a working Doberman,Rottie or GSD here then go to Europe. You will see a big difference.

Heh, unfortunately I noticed how odd GSDs which are bred here in the US looked. I like the european style(?) structure better. It always bugged the hell out of me how GSDs here look. If I ever did get a GSD, I'd defintiely have one flown in from overseas.

Robbin,
I'm again going to bring reality back into the picture here.
You have to decide on what you want - a nice pet ( which with your home situation would be your best choice ), or a dog that will receive PPD training and would then be capable of actually biting an intruder.

The odds of you getting both with your home situation and lack of training background are poor at best.
I'm not saying this to break your bubble or to be mean, it's just the truth.

It's hard to get a dog to reliably defend you. Much harder than people think. And those types of dogs will usually require sacrifices on the owners part, to include removal of other home animals and eternal vigilance to prevent accidents....which is *much* harder in a home with children.

A dog that would protect a home reliably yet be good with children and other animals is pretty rare, and would go for a premium - and if a vendor charged you less than 12 to 15 grand for such a dog, have no doubt that some aspect of the total package would be missing ( usually the dog's actual ability to engage a determined attacker ).

Honestly, I have provided PPD's to nearly a hundred customers in the past, with at least 20 of them being forum members ( and several have noted that I provided their dogs at one time or another ). I'm speaking from hard won experience here that with your home situation and lack of dog experience that you have no business owning a dog that bites.
Get a dog that'll bark at folks, that will fulfill your defense needs and keep you out of court.

You're getting a lot of advice but most of it isn't coming with experience to back up the views ( not said as an insult to anybody, just pointing out the truth ). Most posters have never had a dog bite a criminal nor trained a PPD themselves. Experience changes your view on things. My interview process for a potential client got longer and longer as I provided more dogs since I learned more of what could go wrong with owning a PPD. And most people put very little thought into getting a PPD - they rarely think of the consequences or the sacrifice of life style than owning these types of dogs require.

And as a little side note, have the breeders and trainers that you've contacted gone over all the liability issues that training for PPD work entails? Have they dicussed life style modification and the such with you? You haven't mentioned any of that so I suspect the answer is no...

Once your dog has been trained to bite, everything change. Just have a kids birthday party and a little accident happens and you can lose literally everything. A good lawyer armed with the information that your dog was bite trained and let something happen and "poof"....all your assets are theirs by decree of the court. Think I'm an alarmist? Nope, I'm a professional, and I've seen it happen multiple times now. It ain't pretty, believe me.


Please, just give up on the idea of requiring a dog that has to bite someone - you'll be happy that you did some day down the line.