Heck, I don't even know where to start...this thread went downhill fast...However, I am not opposed to heading downhill even faster...
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I'm not going to continue debating with people who are making ridiculous comparisons.

Then why even be on this list??? Isn't that what makes a list fun is the spirited debate??? Or, is it we should all bow down and hey she is right. Stop the vaccines!!! Call the Dept. of Ag tell them where to go. Vaccines are wrong.

Or maybe we should be able to discuss this.

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My vet just had a 1 1/2 year old Great Dane, who had no health problems previously, drop dead after his owner insisted he be vaccinated.

Just curious, did this perfectly healthy Great Dane have an Autopsy?

I am not going to debate if Vaccines are good or bad. I don't like giving them either. However, there is no choice for most people. Does that make them bad pet owners???

Also, I am curious where did you get that a dog who averages 60-75 female and 75-85 male had a life span of 17 years???

Anyone on this board have a GSD live over 13 years??? Lets get some historical data, instead of just talking.
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I love a debate as much as anyone, but when people are arguing and saying that you can't prove that vaccinating is harmful, that's just a bunch of bull.

And as I stated twice earlier, yes, there are people who must vaccinate their dogs. I'm not referring to those people. I am referring to the ones who go racing to the vet as soon as they get their little postcard in the mail saying that vaccinations are due, and tell the vet to vaccinate the animal for everything because it's better to be safe than sorry. There are plenty of these types of people out there.

As for the dog that died right after his vaccinations, I didn't ask if they did an autopsy. This man has been practicing for 25 years and if he says the dog died from the vaccinations, I tend to believe he is probably correct. This is a top-notch vet who really knows his stuff. That is the reason I sought him out. I have a GSD who is suffering from a Rabies Miasm (yes, a vaccine related problem), and I can tell you that I've never met a vet who knew so much about these types of things. He's truly excellent and he has the client list to prove it.

And in answer to your other question, I have a very close friend who had a GSD live to 18, and I have an aquaintance who's GSD lived to be 16. What did these 2 have in common? You guessed it, they vaccinated as little as possible and fed the dogs a good natural diet.

On the other side of the coin, I have several friends and relatives who have also owned GSDs that fed them low quality food and over vaccinated them. None of these lived past the age of 10. I had to take my mother-in-laws 8 year old GSD to be put to sleep last fall because she had immune disease and then developed cancer that her body was not able to fight against.

This is a problem that's becoming almost epidemic, and so many people want to stick their heads in the sand and pretend it isn't true. This is not something that I'm just making up and this isn't an issue of me expecting you to believe me because I said it and therefore it's true. For those who are arguing for the sake of argument and have never really researched this subject, you may want to do some reading on it. Ed sells a couple of great books on the subject.

And with that, I'm ending my participation in this topic, because we aren't doing anything but going around and around in circles here.

The reason we are going around in circles is you haven't given any facts. You have given anecdotal evidence. None of which would hold up in court. Your vet has 25 years experience...heck thats good enough for me. I will now buy into everything he says.

Since someone else quoted a movie...I will also...

2000 years ago everyone knew the Earth was the center of the universe...
1000 years ago everyone knew the Earth was flat...
15 minutes ago you knew we were alone on this planet...

IMAGINE WHAT WE WILL KNOW NEXT YEAR...

Men in Black

Now its been a while since I've seen it, but I think I am pretty close.

When I asked how many people have had a GSD live past 13, I already KNEW you would have had a couple personally that you knew. I am again talking broad range.

Its almost like when I get people into my store and tell me how to train, because of their vast experience with dogs. They have had them all their life. I always come back with great, how many dogs has that been. Oh, about 5-6. Oh, I guess I gained your experience yesterday.

As an FYI for the Great Dane which dropped dead immediately after vaccination. That would have been caused by anaphalactic (sp?) shock. This is extremely common in humans and other animals with injectables. If this vet was as good as you say he is, he would have been able to pull the dog out of this shock with a shot of epinephrine and associated care.

And just to cause a spirited debate, why are people more likely to believe a single source of information (one vet writing a book) over a majority, and more highly qualified, in a given field? And are these the same people who believe in any other conspiracy theory which comes along?

Todd,

Though I agree that the Average life span of a GSD is closer to 10 to 12 years, my male lived to 15. His working weight was 135#, and was vaccinated every year of his life. The Giant's average life span is usually listed as 10-12 years also, mine live to around 14 years. I don't think the current one is going to go that long because of his thyroid disease, but we will see. He will probably be vaccinated every year also. The Belgian had epilepsy from being attacked as a puppy, she still lived to 13. The Boxer lived to 8 and died as a result of being septic from a prostate abcess.

The record for me was a Papillion that lived to 25. She got breast cancer at around 18. We figured that it would be too risky to have her operated on at that age, so we left it untreated. At 21 it had to be operated on because of the advanced nature of the disease. We figured that the anesthesia would be the same as putting her down and if she survived the surgery that would be great for her. She lived another 4 years. She still had a great attitude, ate fine, had no problems with her elimination control, she did have very limited eye sight due to cataracts. She was also vaccinated every year of her life. Our average on the Papillions was around 18.

My point here is 2 fold. First vaccination reactions are going to be a function of each individual dog. Some are going to have problems, but the vast majority will not. I have seen many dogs that have survived Parvo and Destemper and those dogs were never the same. Their life spans were significantly shortened based on the health problems they had as a result of those diseases. From my experience the diseases are of greater risk than the vaccination. I attribute the longevity of my dogs to the care they recieve. They are maintained in good physical condition, kept mentally stimulated, and recieve good care on the rare occasions that they do get ill. Second is that life involves risk. You get to choose the risks that you accept. I have yet to see in studies that vaccinations cause the diseases they are being blamed for. The diseases blamed on vaccinations also occur naturally. Rates of these diseases have been increasing in most mammals due to enviornmental conditions. In areas, and in people that work extensively, with bad chemicals the rates tend to be even higher.

If you choose not to vaccinate that is fine. You won't hear my complain about that, I do advocate that you make sure you understand that this course carries it's own risk. I can see how if the dog does not go out much it isn't likely to come in contact with these diseases much. I have seen dogs that got Parvo that was attributed to flies bringing it into the persons yard. It isn't common, but it does happen. My dogs are out all the time with us. We use them for Demo's around other dogs, we walk them a lot in areas that have ferral dogs running around that will likely carry these diseases, and train in public parks. I checked the titers on my dogs this year prior to them recieving their vaccinations and discovered that the titers were low in each of them in 2 of 3 of the diseases that could be tested for. For me the risk of vaccination is lower than the risks involved with the diseases. My dogs have never had problems with the vaccines.

The truth is out there.... (humming X-Files theme) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for the ages of your dogs. However, this contradicts what Melissa was saying. She says if you vaccinate your dogs die earlier. I vaccinate all my dogs, and have them live long healthy lives...

Now I am confused... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Todd,

I am not confused!!! If you have one of the dogs that had a problem with a vaccination I can understand why you would be so firmly convinced of the position. A friend of mine has a son that had a bad reaction to a childhood vaccine and the child is severely handicapped because of it. He still has his other children vaccinated. If it happens to you it can be devestating. Everything involves a risk assesment. If your dogs rarely go out, the likelyhood of them contracting the diseases vaccinated against is very low. Not zero, but very low. I could see how you may choose to not do the vaccinations. I don't board animals any more, I don't have the public near my cats anymore, they stay in the house and go to the Vet if there is a problem they need treatment for. So they go out every 5 years or so. I don't vaccinate them at all any more. I haven't for the last 10+ years. Why vaccinate against diseases they are never going to be exposed to? If my dogs did the same thing I wouldn't vaccinate them either, but that is not the life my dogs lead. Them I vaccinate.

A lot of indigenous dog populations have in the past been wiped out or reduced to very few in number because of exposure to diseases that are pretty much extinct because we now vaccinate for them, and there is no disease reservoir to provide infection for our dogs. Distemper at one time was a very common disease. The argument that
some use of disease providing a means of survival of the fittest ignores the fact that in nature it sometimes survival of the lucky. A lot of breeds of dogs suffer from health problems because of gene pool restriction which might be attributed to a reduction at one time in the number of individuals- possibly from disease. If there were more sick dogs in a heavily vaccinated population
of dogs and accompanying shortened life spans, I would believe the anti-vaccination claims, but in
populations of sled dogs which generally live in large numbers, exposed to more chances for infection and vaccinated regularily there are very
few illnesses within a very large population of dogs.
These dogs generally live and work into their teens. I have always vaccinated and will continue until there is definitive proof that proves their risks outweigh the benefits.

My confused part, I was being sarcastic.

The whole point is I don't believe we truly know what all the good and bad points of vaccines are. I don't like giving them...however, as stated several times...no choice.

BTW, I have read the books being referred to. I also have read several articles regarding same. You know what...I still am not convinced either waay.