Catherine--

Yes, Schutzhund is a sport. It has turned into a sport because it's fun (both dogs and handlers seem to agree on this). Does that make it less valid as a test for trainability and breedworthiness? NO. What don't you understand here?

I for another would also like to see an answer to Karmen's question about your own training goals and methods. Thanking you in advance...

Pete Felknor

Joy:

Schutzhund tracking is not an obedience exercise? It’s all obedience. No dog in this world will track footstep to footstep without raising its nose in a calm and consistent pace. You train this through drive and compulsion. Just like any other obedience exercise.

Renee:

Just because I have never owned or handled a dog does not make me any less knowledgeable than you.

I'm sorry I didn't answer you Karmen. I'll attempt to now. I'm sure I'll miss something.

Pete - its not that I don't get it, its just not believable. If Schutzhund is a valid test for trainability and breed worthiness, then shouldn't all titled Schutzhund dogs be able to work?

I'd like to have my pup trained for protection and have absolutely no doubt she has the capability for this. I'm having a difficult time finding a trainer (she's 7 months old) - I'm sure that doesn't surprise anyone. I never play tug with her or work on prey drive, ball drive, etc. as that has nothing to do with protection or bite training in my view. She knows how to bite - we need to work on building confidence, stability and when its appropriate to bite. She will not be a 'fear' biter or a dangerous dog if I find a good trainer and I'm competent.

In the meantime, I socialize her as much as possible - new sights, sounds, surfaces, obstacles and people (nothing new). We also work through different types of stress - no toys or food are ever used and she isn't forced to do anything. I do correct her with a lead when necessary but correction does not equate to compulsion. Its not done in anger or frustration and it does not kill her drive. If I administer a correction properly and her 'drive' goes down then thats a sign of a fragile dog.

I don't let strangers pet her, other than children or people that seem to need the comfort of petting a dog. She's around people quite often and she will walk through a crowd quite comfortably. I want her to be aloof of strangers yet be able to walk through a crowd as you or I would. If someone bumps into her accidentally she should be able to take that calmly.

My training goals are the same as everyone else's - end up with a confident, stable dog that is a companion and protector. I would also like to have her trained to take the weaponed hand. The people I know who have been attacked with a weapon (not a gun) have all been attacked by someone standing next to them or in front of them - they had no idea it was coming (including me). I also want my dog to retarget if and when its necessary and not worry about whether she's got a full mouth grip or have her hang on while someone's hitting her with a stick or something else. I honestly don't have much concern for what happens to someone who's trying to attack my family or me. If someone's life depends on it I'm not thinking about going to court - that could cost a life.

With all that in mind, I want to train in realistic ways (train as we would work) and vary the training so there is no routine - across multiple surfaces, obstacles, different areas, different times of day, etc. so she can think and react under stress. Anything the trainer or I could think of that would be conducive to reaching my goals.

As for proofing, thats something I'll discuss with the trainer. There are other ways to do it without going to a trial.

Catherine,

If there are other methods of proofing a dog that won't potentialy get me injured or killed will you PLEASE TELL ME, so I don't have to spend the time and money to trial with my dog?

I will shorten the question and bring it right to the point. HAVE YOU EVER TRAINED A PROTECTION DOG TO THE "COMPLETION" OF TRAINING? What ever that end point is for you. And what would that end point be for that matter.

Catherine--

Think about this. There's a lot of other points you raised that you should be thinking more deeply about, but for starters--

Good bite training must be founded in prey work because prey work builds the dog's confidence. This is true for any dog. Ed once came up with an anology something like this: you wouldn't expect your ten-year-old son to defend you if the biggest badass in the bar suddenly decided he didn't like you. Fight drive in a dog is a result of careful defensive training OVERLAID onto a solid foundation in prey (in a dog with the genetic capability to do the work). The confidence a good dog has in a fighting situation comes from working in fight drive. You will not develop a dog's fighting potential without grounding the initial work in prey. Period.

Pete Felknor

Catherine:

Saying you do not develop prey drive because it has nothing to do with protection training is like saying I do not use a bat and ball because it has nothing to do with baseball.

Pete are you suggesting that fight drive is purely something you train into a dog,because whilst you can improve it you do need to select a dog that has fight drive and a lot dont.
From my experience,prey drive does not always lead to fight drive,this is why we evaluate dogs more for their fight drive than their prey drive.

Hi Catherine!

If you are to follow the training methods you listed above and develop your dog according to what you say I am afraid that if the day comes and the shit hits the fan, your in for THE surprise of your life. If you are lucky and don`t get bitten by your own dog, you`d better be a brutal "streetfighter" yourself! I don`t think your dog will have any plans in it`s head to "defend" you, unless you take the time and accompany her on her way to develop confidense. And yes, you WILL have to take her through prey etc., etc. God Speed!

If we rewind, isn't Catherine the one w/the pup who jumped up and bit someone at like 5 mos?
The question I have is, if the pup lacks prey drive (and if I recall correctly, that was established awhile ago and Catherine doesn't believe in it anyway), what mechanism will be employed to get the dog to bite when *appropriate*?
Aren't we really talking about finding a trainer who is willing to take on a 7 mo puppy and slam her into defense?

I'll reply based on what I've seen.

Dogs with what I would call "fight drive"--an intense enjoyment of combat--have a strong prey drive coupled with an accessible defensive threshhold and solid nerves. Once the prey foundation is completed and after the dog has reached maturity, the defense drive can be tapped into. Because the dog has strong nerves and because the prey foundation (read CONFIDENCE) is in place, the dog learns to work through the defensive mode into a mental space where he begins to enjoy fighting as fighting, not as just a booty game where he gets to run off with the sleeve. The dog begins to believe that he can beat any agitator/perpetrator, any time, and derives drive gratification from this. What drive is being gratified? The drive to fight.

I believe that immature dogs that show a lot of "fight" are really only manifesting intense prey drive. Look at Vince's story about the dog that would knock him flat to get a ball. I have seen dogs like that. Will they bite you if they think it will get them the ball? Sure. Is this fight drive? No. The drive gratification comes from seizing the prey object.

Another example: The seasoned Schutzhund veteran dog that has such a high defensive threshhold that it would be necessary to INFLICT PAIN on the dog to push it into defense. Is this necessary, or desirable? Of course not. The dog enjoys the sport and can perform at a reasonably high level. But again: the drive gratification comes from prey. Will this dog develop fight drive? No.

One would need to take utmost care not to select such an animal as a police patrol dog. The genetic drive ratios are out of whack for this kind of application. This goes back to much of the argument about the care that must be taken to differentiate dogs that can do good sport work with dogs that can be used as service animals. Sport work allows a good trainer a window into an animal's drive threshholds and genetic makeup. Nothing more and nothing less.

Hope this helps.

Pete Felknor