Quote: Magdalena Ciepla

Wow, that is a dog! Belgian Ring never ceases to amaze me. I guess it goes to show that sometimes our taboos and hangups don't always carry over to training (though I honestly think more than not they do). I'd never think a dog getting zapped in the privates would come across so happy if nothing else!

Magdalena

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=6225126839806036176&q=fils+loots&total=10&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Other dog and handler (first one was her husband) trained for the same programme, Belgian Ring, but a different kind of performing an excercise. (This dog is classified for the cat 3 with an average of 365.81/400)

Greetings

Johan

 Quote: Johan Engelen

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5849739303549047100&q=%27a+tim++nvbk&total=20&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2


This dog is trained that way.

Very good dog, Very good trainer. Nothing you can say agenst that but i dont see anything there that would bring a need to shock the dogs abdominal area (i assume thats what we are talking about now?)

 Quote: Magdalena Ciepla

Wow, that is a dog! Belgian Ring never ceases to amaze me. I guess it goes to show that sometimes our taboos and hangups don't always carry over to training (though I honestly think more than not they do). I'd never think a dog getting zapped in the privates would come across so happy if nothing else!

Magdalena

Magdalena,

I believe that we are more of talking about abdominal corrections now.

 Quote: michael west

 Quote: johan engelen

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5849739303549047100&q=%27a+tim++nvbk&total=20&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2


This dog is trained that way.

Very good dog, Very good trainer. Nothing you can say agenst that but i dont see anything there that would bring a need to shock the dogs abdominal area (i assume thats what we are talking about now?)

That dog is trained with an e-collar on its waist. Why because he doesn't accept any "punishment" from the decoy. He will dig in when there is a correction from the front end. ANd as i already stated on the rear end there are only 2 places where you can attach somthing that is the waist and the base of the tail. The level of correction used depends on the dog and his reaction to stimuli at those places. Mine would freak out even at the lowest level

Greetings

Johan

 Quote: johan engelen

 Quote: michael west

 Quote: johan engelen

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5849739303549047100&q=%27a+tim++nvbk&total=20&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2


This dog is trained that way.

Very good dog, Very good trainer. Nothing you can say agenst that but i dont see anything there that would bring a need to shock the dogs abdominal area (i assume thats what we are talking about now?)

That dog is trained with an e-collar on its waist. Why because he doesn't accept any "punishment" from the decoy. He will dig in when there is a correction from the front end. ANd as i already stated on the rear end there are only 2 places where you can attach somthing that is the waist and the base of the tail. The level of correction used depends on the dog and his reaction to stimuli at those places. Mine would freak out even at the lowest level

Greetings

Johan

Sorry Johan,

You took me wrong, I wasn't questioning the training. I understand the meathid and it makes sense. My only objections was when the point of putting it on the genitals. As far as the abdominal area i don't have enough experience to comment on that.

Ah I see, thanks for clarifying!

I was refering specifically to the genital corrections that we'd been talking about, originally. Obviously this is a very well trained, athletic dog. Looks amazing.

Hi Johan,

Just to clarify....Throughout the dogs' training career he is given a correction via choke or pinch collar. The dog should associate the command with the neck correction from the handler. Why is it the dog beleives the decoy is fighting him when a correction is given from the handler? Is the dog so hard that he loses all focus as well as respect for the handler?

And if the dog is that hard, to me it would seem that the belly band is meant to cause pain. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. Also, why is it the dog performs flawlessly in competition without the band? It would seem that if the control is there on the field the handler/trainer has figured out how to do the job without the band.

If that is the case, then the only reason I can see for using it in training is if there is extreme pressure put on the dog to get him to fight harder. And the question then begs...does not the decoy in the ring pressure the dog as much as the decoy out of the ring? If he doesn't, then why not? Part of the attraction is a hard dog when competing.

Just a few questions running through my mind. I dont mean to put you on the spot. I'd just like to educate myself so when the discussion comes up later I can give the straight facts without trying to BS someone.

On its face the belly band looks abusive. I dont know the level of stim or am educated enough to condemn its use. Here you are the tutor and I am the student. Thank you for any replies.

Howard

Howard,

You are by far better with words then i.

Hi Mike,

I've had a few conversations with Johan in the past. I know that if the questions are clear and concise he will answer them in that manner. This is a touchy subject for a lot of people so I want to be clear in the use of the e-collar in the aforementioned manner.

Years ago I condemned anyone who used a pinch because of its medevial appearance. That was before I educated myself on those collars. Now I am a huge proponent of the pinch when it is needed. I'd lke to learn as much as I can about why an e collar is used in such a way. I'm not ready to condemn anyone who uses it in that manner unless their philosophy doesn't wash. If one stays closed minded, then one might as well close shop.

Howard

Howard,

I agree Johan has given me some great answers. And like i said you are far better with words then i, i never meant to be argumentative. I pretty much had the same questions as you did but i just didn't get them out the right way.