Thanks for saying so, Randy. I kinda feel like I asked a legitimate question and ended up defending my motives, abilities and my dog. After all, this is why I come here, to get information and be mentored, so to speak, on issues that pertain to protection training. I'd like to know if there are any women on the board beside Sandy and I that have taken on this endeavor and if so what there opinions on command/no command are also. While I respect and value all the men's opinions, I just wondered what a females perspective is not that they are only better but because women understand walking around with that "unspeakable" fear in the back of their heads when they are alone on a dark street, just how they would want there dog to react.

Wow, how many times can I say he and his in one post? Sorry about that, just change it out with her and hers. Ill shut up now.

Robbin I can't help with any females opnion, but don't fear about Levi. You're giving him the tools. If god forbid, he is needed, he'll do the best he can. He's a GSD! If I have read your posts right he's also bonded or bonding very well within your pack structure really well. Adding it up, I still vote for command as opposed to noncommand. Even now, really untrained would you expect Levi to just stand there, while you or one of the children were accosted or knocked to the ground? He may not know what he could do, but he would certainly be upset about it. Command or no. The point I'm trying to make I think is that a command is a buffer, it allows your dog to follow and relax. But that doesn't mean he's going to just sit or stand by while unspeakable things are happening to a member of his pack because he hasn't been give a command, any more than he would sit silently by now.
Hummm, that would be an interesting proofing, though I don't know what it would be worth, the dog is put in sit, decoy comes out and beats me up, the dog is not to move. Hummm. Good sit.
But I can't see it happening.
Don't worry, your giving him the tools to deal. He'll do the best he can. He's a GSD!

The journey is its own reward,
Randy

I was wondering when you were going to catch that David

I assure, 100% bonafide feminal, this one.

 Quote: robbinmann

I just wondered what a females perspective is not that they are only better but because women understand walking around with that "unspeakable" fear in the back of their heads when they are alone on a dark street, just how they would want there dog to react.

Um, I meant not that they are any better...oops. sheesh

Robbin
I can certainly see where you are coming from and the dilemma you face. And I'm glad you are being pro-active and not sitting quivering behind a locked door. I think you have raised some very good questions.

I'm wondering if there was a case where you truly needed Levi to kick into gear and couldn't give a command if he would respond just with his "natural protectiveness"? If a 100+ lb Lab (previous post of a news story) can bite an assailant I have no doubt that a well bred GSD could do it too. But there is still the concern that he would misjudge a situation and react in an inappropriate manner, especially after he has been trained to bite.

Will your alpha status as well as the PPD training cause him to wait for a command even if he would like to intervene?
Can you set up a test to learn the answer?

How about training a bark and hold (a warning) type response without pursuit in the case of physical contact to you? So if a nice person does touch you they have time to step back and not get bitten (they might have to change their undergarments).

Or an automatic (no command given) Guard the Article with YOU being the article ONLY if you are down or being dragged away? With those two conditions for a bite I would think that the chance of accidental bites would be minimised.

Has anyone trained these types of responses? Are these hypothetical training ideas still asking the dog to make too many executive decisions and creating a liability situation?
How well do you think they would work in Robbin's situation?

And I just went back and read Mike J Schoonbroods post again... very good point Mike about the ring sport training with the decoys trying to get the dog to bite with silly stuff. But at what point does the dog decide (through training) that the decoy has crossed the line?
And how do you know your PPD dog "has it"?

And while I was writting my letter Randy Allen just answered one of my questions.

Great thoughts Debbie, can't wait to hear some answers...

The point i was trying to make is that if the dog is going to be a PPD , it shouldn't be a question of "if" the dog will bite without a command, that should be a given. Through obedience and training the dog learns what you're asking of him. I also think there's a big difference in what people think a PPD is,
AL

I'm torn between bite command vs no bite command protection training. There are great pros and cons to both. I'm truly torn because I agree with both views given here. Both views have total credence in my mind.

My trainer has done various scenarios with my dog, shaking my hand, chit chat, escalating threatening talk with me, full blown run towards my dog, full blown run towards me, short distance attack on either of us. When a bite is appropriate, I've had time to give the command.

Except for once, after giving the command to bark ("watch") when a male decoy-in-training came slowly and threateningly toward us, then from a couple of feet away "attacked" me so quickly, raising his arm to pretend strike me. I assumed he was going to work my dog, not come at me. He was so fast I didn't realize he was even attacking me until I saw my dog on him with a bite to the underarm when the decoy raised his arm right at my head. Everything was "in an instant". I literally had no time to react with a command or in any other way.

To me this is a realistic scenario (assuming some idiot is going to try to go through a ferociously barking dog). No time to give the bite command, my dog attacked on his own. If this had been a real life incident and my dog hadn't attacked, my head would have been clobbered or my jaw broken.

I was happy with this, needless to say. I realize that having given the bark command, my dog was already on the alert and his attack on the decoy was probably a natural outcome of being on the alert and the guy attacking me.

Do I want my dog being in that state of alert at all times? No, I don't. I want to be able to walk him amongst people. But I also realize that if a real life scenario did arise, I may not have time to put him on the alert or command him to attack, it all may happen in an instant. Then yes, I want my dog to attack without command and not sit around with a duh look on his face.

We're both learning....

Okay, if the dog is with me and someone comes up from behind or just flat out comes at me to do me harm I would certainly want the dog to take the initiative and bite. If the person is standing in front of me and we are arguing or the person is yelling at me or being threatening, until that person actually makes a move to harm me PHYSICALLY I would want him to wait for a command from me. Just because someone is being threatening doesn't mean the dog can see that as a reason to bite.

Sandy, I do wonder too if Lear was already on alert when the decoy came up and surprised you. I wonder what will happen if you have him beside you without a bark command and said decoy tries to strike you surprisingly. Lear always knows that when you have him in a watch that usually a bite will follow, even if you aren't paying attention, he is probably anticipating the bite command and just did his thing that day. Maybe you should have Uschi try a scenario without a bark command, see what he does. Thing is, he reacted as he should have.

This makes me think though, maybe I shouldn't have put my question in the context that I did. Maybe its not an issue of whether the dog should bite on command, maybe its an issue of how the boundaries of your personal space are defined. It's my guess that this can be trained into the dog. My trainer has his dogs trained to bite if someone puts TWO hands on him. Fair enough, most times people aren't going to put two hands on you unless they are hugging you are attempting to do harm. Also, I would guess that together with threatening posture, sweat, fear smells, etc will induce the dog to action in such cases. I wouldn't want my hubby getting bit just hugging me or something. Maybe I'm not giving the dog enough credit to distinguish between a true threat and a non threat?