That I can understand. I've surely done things in the spur of the moment that I regret or later think back that I could have/should have done it different. But thats not the feeling I get. I'm honestly not attempting to be critical or judgemental. Just trying to understand.

Just curious Benjamin, what is your background? I do not see anything in your profile that says where you work or what your K-9 history is?

I am just curious really.

What "feeling" is it that you get?
Do I regret what I did, NO absolutely not. The dog came after me, bit me, and we went to the ground.
Are you requesting that I pop him twice to see if I get the same reaction?

Biting, and being stepped on are quite different. A dog knows this just as well as a human does. An alpha that "seriously bites" a pack member "for no reason" would likely be ILL.

Stepping on a dog's tail, or paw for that matter, is not a direct attack, a BITE is a direct attack. Other dogs and wolves step on each other all the time, an older pup playing rambunctiously that trods on resting mom/baby sitter is not visciously attacked by that packmate.

If you are accidentally stepping on a dog chances are you aren't staring it in the eye and looming over it in a dominant fashion. If you are stepping on a dog or kicking it and it is not an accident, likely you are staring the dog in the eye and acting in an aggressive way. A dog can read body language, you know

And no, I was not saying that biting out of pain from being stepped on is dominance.

It is a dominant reaction to retaliate with force (the use of teeth) against the offender. A subordinant pack member that is inadvertantly hurt by a dominant member will not attack the dominant member, but that does not mean the subordinant member will not warn the offender off vocally or with body language (essentially saying "hey, ow, tone it down!"). A subordinant pack member that does physically challenge a higher ranking individual in a situation where play became rough, is initiating a dominance struggle.

A sharp dog that reacts to pain stimuli in drive may not be a dominant dog, but that does not mean biting is the correct way for the dog to respond to the handler. The handler is dominant, a bite to the handler in a situation that Carol described as happening to her with her dog, is IMO a serious offense. My dogs are never ever allowed to bite me, and while I do not alpha roll or tackle them every single time or even 10% of the time it happens (which is not often anyways) that doesn't mean I never would or that I do not consider biting to be a serious problem.

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

What I would have done is immediately correct the dog, put him in a long down and then when I felt in control I'd take him through some obedience.

How would you correct the dog? What correction would you have used in this exact situation? Another flat-collar correction, after the dog has escalated and bitten you for the first flat collar correction?

Sorry, I am slow tonight!

I too thought that it was explained clearly.

The alpha roll can be very dangerous, and even the 1970s popularizers of it as a method for establishing or re-establishing dominance (the New Skete Monks) later recanted and un-recommended it because of its potential for problems in the hands of any but a very experienced handler-trainer with a dog who s/he knows very well.

That said, I don't think the theory or reasoning behind it has changed -- the change has been to the idea that it's an everyday-type correction. And this IS a very experienced handler-trainer with working dogs she knows very well.

What she did would certainly be in the running for me if my dog, wearing a flat collar, bit me (not snapped.... bit) for a leash correction. Off the top of my head, I can't think of another correction available in that situation that would be appropriate.

But I would not recommend it to anyone who had ANY doubt about winning.

JMO.

Once again Carol you refuse to answer my question and instead just get defensive. And once again I'm asking because I'm curious.

I'm not asking you to be sorry or to defend yourself.

I'm not going to get in a pissing match over who knows more or does what with dogs. I'm sure you have more experience with high drive dogs and thats why I asked. This conversation is going no where and I'm done posting in it. I guess I shouldn't have expected to get a actual answer based on ethology or behavior instead of dogma and tradition.

"What I would have done is immediately correct the dog, put him in a long down and then when I felt in control I'd take him through some obedience."

Benjamin, how would you have corrected the dog given the same situation?

I guess for the rest of us a dog biting the handler is reason for correction (no matter what philosophy of dog training we normally would employ). I too would have taken a very severe correction for this type of behavior.

For me the long down methodology does not teach the dog that they cannot bite the handler and get away with it. Then the down is taking on the form of punishment and I personally do not want that.

Sorry but I posed this same question (hypothetical of course) on a another board which was purely positive and guess what they had a hard time coming up with a solution that did not involve a correction.

Carol applied an increasing scale of correction as I see it. What is wrong with that? Isn't that what we do?

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

Once again Carol you refuse to answer my question ...

I guess that I too am not clear on what the question is, or on what correction you would you have used when you mentioned a correction followed by a down and then obedience work.

I personally lean pretty far toward positive reinforcement training. The dog biting me is a special situation, in my book.

I'm not in any way saying that an alpha roll is the best tool in the box (and neither is anyone else on this thread, I feel quite sure), but I'm not sure what else there was at that moment.

I'm tired too, so maybe I'm just not seeing every level of inquiry in the thread......